Dear Margo: Sex and the City

Today’s culture of “hooking up” makes dating feel impossible; what’s a girl to do? Margo Howard’s advice

Sex and the City

Dear Margo: My daughter, 22, refuses to go out with men. Why? It seems that girls of her generation have created a situation where the young man summons the young woman to his apartment to “hook up.” That’s the date: no phone call, just a text message. Then, after the event, the girl wonders why he doesn’t call. In addition, the young lady is expected to wax her privates and carry baby wipes in her purse so she can be fresh and ready for anything. This is because men like “young” girls.

If you recall our college days, gentlemen called you no later than Wednesday for a Saturday night date. They wined and dined you and walked you to the door for a goodnight kiss, if they were lucky. Sex came later, when the woman felt she was in a committed relationship. Young women today should all unite, stop waxing and “take back the night.” — Sally

Dear Sal: You and I wouldn’t have gone for the routine that you say is today’s norm. I think our generation was lucky that sex meant something and “virtue” had value. The hook-up culture of today strikes me as bizarre, with its practitioners the losers.

I don’t think you’re asking a question so much as voicing a protest. Your views seem to coincide with your daughter’s — and I’m guessing she got hers from you. I hope you’ll make an effort not to be nervous on her behalf, because there are men who find the hooking-up culture shallow and demeaning. People are getting married all the time, and I seriously doubt all those romances began with a booty call. And guess what? Following is a letter from your daughter.

Sex and the City: Part II

Dear Margo: My mother wrote you in regard to me and men. I know she’s concerned that I don’t date, and I want to give you my perspective. I knew about sex at a young age and felt comfortable being open with her. I chose not to lose my virginity in high school; my mother always told me not to settle. I went to college, and a voice in my head told me to wait. I was not interested in one-night stands in a fraternity house. I was mysterious, an enigma.

The “virgin thing” went from enigma to stigma in the real world. I’ve been working for a year, and I’m 22 and still a virgin. My confidence makes me attractive to men, and I have a head-turning Kim Kardashian figure. Desirable men flirt with me, but I know they are only after one thing. I am mature for my age, which comes off as sexually experienced. Men don’t ask me on dates; they just invite me to their humble abodes. I feel disinclined to accept any of these offers because of my “secret.” All I really want is for someone to see me for me. — Virgin Whore

Dear Virg: I believe your mother understands where you are coming from and, in fact, agrees with you. Her concern is that you will never find Mr. Right if you refuse to go on dates. I think you are shortchanging the appeal of not being easy. Sexual America may be on a faster track than before, but there are still men with standards. My recommendation would be for you to accept what you imagine to be invitations to hook up and then treat them as dates — you know, with things like “conversation.” If the guy is disappointed, well … he might also be intrigued. You will at least have given him a chance.

Do not buy into the “stigma” business. Somewhere there’s a man who doesn’t think much of hooking up and is looking for a girl like you, and the only way you will find him is by accepting dates. I have been around a long time and know that when the chemistry is right, you can pretty much have things your way. — Margo, determinedly

* * *

Dear Margo is written by Margo Howard, Ann Landers’ daughter. All letters must be sent via e-mail to dearmargo@creators.com. Due to a high volume of e-mail, not all letters will be answered.

COPYRIGHT 2011 MARGO HOWARD
DISTRIBUTED BY CREATORS.COM

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123 Responses so far.

  1. avatar blue tooth says:

    Margo, I’m not sure I can agree with you on this one. It seems to me not so much that the mother agrees with her daughter as that the daughter agrees with her mother. Also, and I feel this is urgent enough to say it first, under no circumstances should she go to a man’s house, for dinner or any other reason, unless she has already been out with him a few times, knows him well, is comfortable with him and feels safe with him, and knows that his values about respecting women align with hers. Date rape is very real, and many men act charming and courteous towards women until they get them alone. And then, wrestling is seen as all in fun, and no means maybe and sometimes yes.

    To the young lady I would say, stand your ground for what you believe in. But I would also ask you if you really haven’t found anyone who was worth getting to know, and maybe developing a relationship with. In college there are tons of Frat Boys, true, and lots more guys who are only looking for sex, but there are also a lot of guys who are genuinely friendly, sincere, caring, and looking for a real relationship. Did you not meet any of those guys? What did you think of them?

    Now that you’re older, you’re right, you’re a rare person. A lot of men would want to bed you just because you’re a virgin, but those sound like the men that you’ve already met. Some men, who you might like to meet, might hesitate to get involved with you, because of the emotional weight of being the first. And some men who might want to explore a relationship with you, may be unwilling to forgo sex while they are seeing what develops between you.

    It’s a hard situation. I wish you luck. Remember that there’s sex, but there’s also companionship, shared experience and values, emotional connectedness, and intimacy.

  2. avatar Kathleen Hein says:

    Yeah, I’m with Blue Tooth on this one. Under NO circumstances would I ever go to a man’s house until I knew him fairly well. Certainly not on a first date! As an alternative, however, the daughter could suggest an alternative of meeting for coffee or dinner in someplace nice and public, if she is attracted to the person doing the asking. If he is interested in more than a hook up, he’ll agree. If not, then it’s his loss.

  3. avatar D says:

    To the mother:
    I have some spilled milk for you and I will get someone to play a Stradivarius for you. One thing I have learned is the good ole days are never as good as people seem to think they were.

    Your description of the “hook up” culture of today is quite comical and wrong. You act like the only people that want to “hook up” (seriously, when old people start using slang words or phrases, that slang should die) are guys and that certainly is not the case. By the way, even in today’s culture, women never lost the night. Men just have to do different things to have sex (assuming that is what they want).

    To the daughter:
    For me to believe that you have a Kim Kardashian figure, I would need pictures. How you view yourself may not be how everyone else views you. But for the sake of this comment, I will take you at your word that you have a Kim Kardashian figure. I like Kim Kardashian’s figure. If I see a woman with Kim Kardashian’s figure, I will look, maybe even stare a bit. There might be certain things going through my head. Contrary to what this comment may make you think, I am a nice and good guy. Men, even the nice guys, tend to be visual creatures and will check you out. That is just life. The nice guys are smart enough not to tell you what they are thinking.

    Having said all that, Margo’s advice is solid. However, if all of the men that you are going out with just want to have sex, the problem might not be just them, it might be you and the man choices you are making.

    By the way, if someone is describing herself as a “virgin whore”, I would think she is a tease. That is the absolute worst.

    • avatar Dani Smith says:

      Your last paragraph summed up exactly what went through my head when I got to the end of her letter – a “tease.”   I came away with the impression that she started out as a chaste virgin with the right intentions.   “I want to save myself for the right guy who isn’t just looking for a one night hook up.”    Then once she got to college she realized she was getting attention for being a so-called “enigma.”  She also began to like all the attention she was getting.  She began to think very highly of herself (hence describing herself as confident, with a head-turning Kim Kardashian figure.)   Nothing wrong with that, but over time, all of this has combined together and now it’s the desire to confidentally strut around in front of men with her head turning figure, watching them watch her, being an “enigma” who believes she’s denying them what they want.  In other words – a tease.   

      I say, if she likes having her head turning figure being looked at so much while simultaneously denying men the head turning figure and being some mysterious enigma, then at least make money for it.  Become a stripper.  Or even a “burlesque dancer,” if stripper isn’t classy enough.  😀   Seriously.   That’s what strip tease is all about.  Strutting your stuff, flaunting your figure, having men watch you, desire you, fawn over you, but not actually hooking up with them.  Then getting paid for it all.   I dunno, sounds like a perfect fit to me.  😀

      • avatar Carrie A says:

        Wow. You are projecting a lot onto this girl that’s not there. She’s frustrated because men only want to hook up, not date, and suddenly she’s a stripper? Why, because of a two word signature that she probably thought summed up her problem (I’m a virgin, most guys only want whores). You sound pretty bitter that she hasn’t slept with a billion guys for some reason; I see nowhere in her letter where she was getting attention because she’s a virgin. In fact, unless she’s wearing a sign around her neck, I would bet these guys have no clue she’s a virgin. That doesn’t seem like something you just share with every guy that you talk to.

        How sad that just because she apparently has a nice figure and some confidence people like you assume she has to be a whore or a stripper. I guess the men she has been talking to have the same view. What she really needs to do is find a better class of people to associate with.

        • avatar Anais P says:

          I do believe that rather than her own opinion or experience, Carrie’s parenthetical expression (“I’m a virgin, most guys only want whores”) was meant to be Carrie’s assumption of what LW2 was thinking and therefore why LW2 used “Virgin Whore” as her signature name.

      • avatar blueelm says:

        The guy that raped me called me a tease. You have issues. She’s dealing with the fact that women are objectified and appreciated only for their hole. It’s either “pure” till some one gets their junk in it or “impure.”

        I would suggest she spend some time vounteering for a woman’s shelter, get to know her local feminists, and meet better men. Better men than you as well.

        You say there’s nothing worse than a “tease” and I say there’s nothing worse than a “nice guy” ™.

        • avatar nikkylee says:

          Wow, that’s a heck of a jump you just made. Not to minimize how horrific rape is, and believe me my family has some awful insight into that, but saying “no one likes a tease” doesn’t make him a pig who objectifies women, worthy of being compared to a sicko.

          I agree that women are objectified (men can be too, you know!), and that the amount pressure put on us to be sexy and perfect is insane and sickening… but I don’t get the impression that’s all that’s going on here. There are creeps (of both genders), and the media sucks… but the dating world isn’t the pervert infested hole I think she sees it as. A lot of her letter DOES make it sound like she’s a little bit full of herself. Sorry, even the very confidant women I know don’t describe their bodies as “-insert celebrity sex symbol- head turning”, but a lot of the fairly arrogant ‘teases’ do.

          Even as a woman, I have to agree with D on the tease thing. The girls out there, of which there are MANY even if the LW isn’t one herself, who dress like whores with 5 lbs of makeup and glitter and boobs flopping all over and shorts 2 inches below their butt… They’re obnoxious. Especially when they spend a night drinking, hanging all over half a dozen different guys, and then complain that all the guys want is sex? No right to complain about being objectified when 90% of your conversations involve parties and whatever other vapid things come out when you’re trying to come off as cute and sexy. There are men in the same mold, who have no problem treating women like dirt and using them simply because if one girl wont, they can go out and find another who will. And I’m 23, so don’t take this as me just ragging on “youth today”.

          Stay away from that crowd, and there are a lot of good men out there. I’m with one, and I know a lot more who really DO want a relationship, and would be willing to wait, or prefer to wait themselves.

        • avatar Briana Baran says:

          blueelm: It is not uncommon for rapists to refer to their victims as “teases”. Before you begin berating me for minimizing what happened to you, or anyone else, consider this: I was trapped with a 65-year-old “Dear Family Friend” for three weeks. I was sixteen and a virgin and had never even kissed a boy. Said “friend” spent the three weeks sexually assaulting me in every way imaginable accept actual intercourse…but only because he was savoring the torment of building up my fear. He called me a Little Tease, too. I spent every night bleeding, in pain, furious and fearful.

          I also know the difference between a rapist calling his victim a tease, and the sort of woman to whom D is referring when he suggests that Virgin Whore (ooo, I said it again) is a Tease. There are women who dress provocatively (yes, there is such a thing as dressing provocatively, even doing it deliberately. Yes indeed there is), flaunt their figures (I am not saying one shouldn’t…if you’ve got it, darling, work it), and deliberately give the impression of being sexually available through physical and facial tells, body language, physical proximity they keep to others…and then are offended, disgusted and contemptuous when they actually garner even the mildest of male attention. I had friends who did this, as well as a sister. This behavior is not flirting. Most people who flirt want to be noticed, and accept the attention they get with a certain good humor. Women who are the kind of tease being referred not only have no sense of humor, are resentful and condescending toward men who show them any attention, but also tend to be unable to handle situations that…YES…they create themselves.

          My sister horribly teased and provoked a much older man (whom she thought of as pathetic, malleable, fat, repulsive and old) who was involved in ghost hunting in order to get access to parties and events. At one of these, he backed her against a wall with his hands on either side of her shoulders (she is size 2, 98 pound, 5′ 4″, and weak as a kitten…and was wearing a nylon cire dress that barely covered her butt, with fishnet stockings and five inch heels)…without ever touching her, tried to kiss her, then professed his love for her. My panicked sister couldn’t even scream for help…which was about ten feet away in the next room…with an open doorway between her and them. As it happened, the hall contained the restroom, and inevitably, she was “rescued” by several someone’s needing the facilities. All of whom thought she might be either involved with her masher, or attempting to start something with him based on her behavior all night long, and less than understanding when she claimed she had been “assaulted”. Especially given his public and heartfelt apology. Yes, he’d had several affairs with younger women of woo-woo…but never forced anything with anyone. She did continue going to events at which he was also present, but only for a short time…probably because others in the same circle were short on sympathy. Including the females. Because she had been playing the tease.

          Not that this stopped her behavior at other times, or in other venues. A man couldn’t even politely ask her for a dance without her becoming condescending, nasty and contemptuous. As in “How dare he? What does he think I am? A whore? I’m a Good Girl” (which in her case could be spelled the same way as in LW2’s: v-i-r-g-i-n). Women who tease are not good. No one likes them, not even other women. And before you come out swinging, no one, male or female, deserves to be raped. But D is right…teases cause themselves, and other women, and men, enormous amounts of grief, anxiety and pain.

  4. avatar Katharine Gray says:

    Well, I certainly agree that no one should go to a man’s apartment without knowing them well.  And I wouldn’t accept an invitation to a man’s apartment unless I was ready to have sex…assuming that the description of today’s dating culture is correct and its understood that accepting such an invitation means sex is part of the program (actually..I think it always has been understood to mean that).  I don’t think its a good idea to accept such an  invitation and then try to turn it into a conventional date.  Better to say…I’d love to meet you for drinks/dinner/coffee a movie if you want to see if the guy is worth your time, not to mention your virtue. 

    I think it has always been thus that one-night stands rarely are followed by a phone call and rarely end up in a conventional dating relationship but I suppose it happens now and then. 

       

  5. avatar Briana Baran says:

    To Sally: Precisely what generation do you think you belong to? My older son is 2o, and I delivered him at the age of thirty-two…which makes me an “old mom” of 52 as of this year. I would hazard a guess that you are more of my “generation” than of Margo’s (no offense, Margo, you will see my point soon).

    You say:
    “If you recall our college days, gentlemen called you no later than Wednesday for a Saturday night date. They wined and dined you and walked you to the door for a goodnight kiss, if they were lucky. Sex came later, when the woman felt she was in a committed relationship.”

    This would indicate that you matured in the late ’70’s and the ’80’s. I don’t know where you grew up (a convent? A strict, religious, small-town environment?), but many of the girls I knew in 1977, when I graduated high school (a school in the academic top 5th percent in the nation, just to give some perspective, and in the middle of the Top Ten Public High Schools in the USA…again, simply to clarify) were already “hooking up” (though that is a relatively new term)…of their own initiative. I will say that Raves, girls dressing in lingerie and wandering from 300+ person party to even larger party inebriated and staggering was not quite as much the norm as they are now on college campuses…but one-night-stands certainly were. And men were inviting women to their rooms and apartments (not as many single men had houses…even if they were older) just as hopefully as they are now. And girls with a bit of sense were saying “No”. It was not just the era of “Fear of Flying” and “Scruples”…there was also the terrible warning implicit in “Looking for Mr. Goodbar”.

    Not every man demands that a woman wax…hardly…and plenty of women your daughter’s age are adamant that a man be completely free of hair or it’s a no-go. Surprised? Women expect and compare notes on “booty-calls” too. You may be waging a protest…but you’re living in an information-deficient dream. Time to face reality…it isn’t just those pesky, oinking males…

    To Virgin Whore: “Virgin Whore”? Really? What? What does that even mean, in your case? A virgin, clinically, is a woman who’s hymen is intact…and a whore is a woman (well, anyone actually) who takes money for sexual services (though in the common parlance, that can extend to “payment” or “gain” for “virtual whoring”, ie: doing something a bit disgraceful or against one’s ethics, morals or better judgment for dubious gain). You have never had sex, ergo, a virgin (though at times that bit of intact membrane is a bit misleading…I’ve know women who have done everything…and I do mean everything…penetrating except vaginal, and considered themselves “virgins”. Technically correct. In actuality…well…what can one possibly say?). But why a whore? And why only men who want to bed you? You say, “I was mysterious, an enigma.” You certainly are, my dear.

    You see, even with a figure like Kim Kardashian’s (Really? I always worry when someone begins describing themselves in slightly, oh, hyperbolic language), and “confidence (that) makes me attractive to men”, men only want to invite you to their, ahem “humble abodes”. Humble abodes? Does this mean cheap, pukey apartments? Or starter homes? Or seedy hotels in which mashers lurk? Or does this have more to do with that “confidence” coming across like “sexual experience”…which comes across as, perhaps, being overly aware and acutely conscious of that Kardashian-like voluptuousness and perhaps displaying it to its best advantage?

    Before I get slammed by every female on this board, let me explain. Virgin Whore (good grief, but it’s HER self description, and one does wonder, doesn’t one?) says men ONLY hit on her for booty calls. Men are visual. Men see and respond to certain signals, culturally, socially and anthropologically. Once upon a time, back when dinosaurs ruled the earth (proof positive that people did exist with saurians, that’s me), I did have an eye-popping hour-glass figure. 38-22-38, on a firm, 5’2” frame. Back in the Bad Old 1980’s. The Sexual Revolution. I worked in a business (comics and role-playing games) in which 98% of my customers and co-workers were male. They aren’t just geeks, nerds or losers, either, that’s actually the minority. I had plenty of men who wanted to date me, and two who married me…the current marriage having just celebrated 17 years. Yes, I sometimes wore (and still do, it isn’t THAT bad) interesting and provocative clothing, five inch heels, black leather, studs, spikes (yup)…and I rarely got hit on for hook-ups. It is the mind-set you project. Some of the guys hit on anything that moved…but they asked me for dates. Hung around for hours, hoping. No, I’m not bragging…what I am saying is that Virgin Whore’s problem seems to be not with All Men…but her own.

    Calling yourself Virgin Whore is your first clue. Never getting any offers of dates (not even “let’s go get a coffee”? Or would that be settling? You give off some strange vibes) at all…only leering invitations for sex, and only by text (I know some young women, very nice, very attractive…at college, still virgins…and guys phone them for dates and confirm by text or email)…did you ever think, just possibly…maybe it’s you? You “know” any man who flirts with you is only after one thing. Yes…men want sex (clue: so do women). A lot of them are also willing to wait for it…a long time if they like you. You’ll never find out if you see them as filthy leering creatures after only one thing (men also want love, respect, security, comfort, relationships…they are human. Did you know that? I didn’t think so…). How can anyone, mmm, see you for you (Who? A Virgin Whore? What does that MEAN?) if you don’t give them a chance? Are you really afraid of “settling” because of what mama said? Or are they all to “humble”? Or have you come to the conclusion that actually having sex with a man IS whoring…even if you love him and he loves you? Because you’re afraid that he won’t be good enough, that you’ll end up selling yourself, your confidence, and your head-turning body too cheaply and “settling”?

    I really don’t think men and today’s horrid, debauched, loathsome society is your problem. It’s you. Virginity is not a Gold Standard, a bargaining chip, or a measure of one’s worth. It’s a physical state that can be rendered meaningless by a fall of the support bar of your bicycle, the front of your horse’s saddle, a bad landing in gymnastics…whatever. You won’t be sacrificing, selling or whoring yourself if you decide to have sex. I am not saying run out and do it. Having standards is not a problem. But you are very self-involved, and very reality-challenged. When a situation, such as always encountering the same problem with the same type of man, repeats itself endlessly, it’s time to stop blaming them, and ask yourself, “What am I doing to constantly attract this type of man, and get this type of response?”. Or even better, “Are my perceptions correct? Is this really what his attention means? Or should I try that coffee and..? Maybe give him a chance?”. Maybe therapy would help…but only if you are willing to acknowledge a problem, and able to accept aid in finding a coping strategy. Therapists are not magicians, and they can’t help someone who doesn’t believe they need help, or want the help they get.

    Whatever. The Soulless One has spoken…starting at 3:43 am. How I love insomnia. Mazel Tov. Over and out.

    • avatar vicki ebeling says:

      briana baran,

      you made me laugh, and i couldn’t agree with you more. mazel tov.

    • avatar Lila says:

      Briana, you bring up a very interesting point: how does this woman come across to others? Is she a good girl masquerading as a sort of Courtney Stodden? [shudder] We have no idea, but if she really is only attracting sleazebags who just want 15 minutes of fun, then… perhaps she is projecting a persona that gives men the impression that that’s what she’s about, too. And that would also serve to repel men who are NOT looking for a cheap whore. It is as you say, “it is the mind-set you project.”

      Maybe she needs to take a hard look at herself – better yet, have a very honest, good friend tell her how she seems to others (it is SO hard to see oneself objectively). And maybe instead of waiting for a great guy to magically appear and treat her with chivalry, she might benefit from getting involved with different group activities that interest her. Great way to meet people of a like mind and to actually have a friendship before romping in the sack.

    • avatar amw says:

      Well said…and especially impressive for the wee hours of the morning!

    • avatar flyonthewall says:

      Briana, I fully agree, too. Love to read your posts.

  6. avatar RobFromBoston says:

    If the daughter isn’t actually going out with these guys, isnt possible that she is misreading them?  Perhaps she’s just a bit too full of herself.  There aren’t too many women with a Kim Kardashian figure but there are plenty of women who think they have a Kim Kardashian figure.

    • avatar amw says:

      I found this description rather suspect myself. I think confidence is a wonderful trait and one that most find very attractive.

      This situation reminds me of a friend whose mother instilled the idea in her children that they were better than everyone else…looks, thoughts, smarts, etc. Their attitudes were not one of confidence but of vanity.

      My friend was witty, intelligent and very nice looking. If I were to compliment him using those exact words, he would react as if I’d just insulted him.

      In this instance, I think the mother needs to clue in to the fact that not everyone on this planet, younger generations included, is trying to live up to the societal standard the entertainment industry plasters all over tv and magazines. If her daughter’s peers behave in this manner, its time for new friends, not a chastity belt.

      The daughter needs to step down from her pedestal and engage in the dating game. Erring on the side of caution is certainly commendable and recommended. However, not every potential mate intends to take you to bed the moment you accept a date. If every man she encounters does, she is attracting the wrong men, plain and simple.

      (For example, if you dress provocatively, how can you be surprised when someone thinks you’re looking for a “good time?” You can still be sexy without looking like a hooker.)

      “Virgin Whore” should spend her time doing the things she enjoys allowing her the opportunity to meet new and different people. If she does receive male attention, she shouldn’t instantly assume that his intentions are negative. Approach life with an open mind and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. There is someone out there who will love her for who she is, not who she resembles.

  7. avatar Sweet Dream says:

    To Mom: Warning, if you think all men and women do these days is “hooking up” you might be watching too many episodes and reruns of Jersey Shore.

    To Daughter: My 11 y/o daughter told me a story of an apple tree. All the good apples are on the higher branches and the rotten apples are on the lower. Lazy men and boys pick up the lower apples, meanwhile the upper apples have to wait a little longer for good workers to get their ladders and pick them. Even at this youg age she understands that she should not settle. I hope my daughter grow up to be like you. I don’t have any problem with sex before marriage, but it has to be special not casual. Please, please don’t ever go to a man’s residence on the first few dates. Not until you are sure and you and he are alcohol free.  

  8. avatar wishuponafallingstar says:

    Stand your ground! Please don’t be disheartened by the people on this board who are willing to jump all over you. I have a couple of friends, both recently married to their respective spouses, who never had sex before marriage. One of the couples didn’t even kiss until after they were engaged. These were typical, American girls, ones whose families had been in American for many generations. There are great guys like that out there, you just have to look a bit harder for them :).

    • avatar butterfly55 says:

      Never understood the big importance of that, you might ended up married to someone who is lousy at sex and not even know it, no thanks.

      • avatar martina says:

        My sister is proof of that.  When she was in her early 20s she called me to tell me she met this wonderful guy at a seminar and was going to marry him.  He was like 30 years her senior.  I of course questioned her about the relationship instead of say are you friggin crazy. Being the older, wiser sister, didn’t aske her if she was friggin crazy but instead, asked her how they met, how she is sure he is the love of her life and then asked her if she’d had sex with the guy.  She hadn’t.  I told her she’d better do that before she got married to make sure they were compatible.  Good thing she did because he couldn’t.  That ended that.

      • avatar P S says:

        I beg to differ. My spouse was a virgin when we married and is one hell of a lover because we talk about our likes, dislikes, whether something’s working, if we need to change it up, etc. We also talked about our expectations and such about sex before we walked down the aisle. We didn’t want to leave anything to chance and assume that department would take care of itself.

        He also gets that it’s just as much about what goes on OUTSIDE the bedroom. You’re not going to exactly enjoy the ride that night or even want to go on one at all when your partner or spouse was an insufferable jerk to you during the day.

        My ex was also a virgin. He sucked in bed but it’s because he’s selfish and abusive. He wouldn’t know what “give AND take” was if it was a creature that landed out of the sky on his face and started to wiggle. As far as I know he’s never had a date in the 15 years since we split up and the last girl he pursued he actually chased her away because he’s downright smother-scary… and was twice her age.

        Meanwhile the only “experienced” person I was with was an SOB who raped me to “convince” me that I really wanted it. The reason I put “experienced” in quotes for him is because I don’t call that being experienced, I call it being an ass.

        Note: I’m well aware not everyone who’s sexually experienced is like this, in fact most aren’t, so please know I’m not stereotyping. I’m just relating my experience. However, I still believe that, unfortunately, societal expectations these days put a lot more pressure on men and women to make choices that may not be what’s true to their hearts out of fear of rejection or being alone, and that’s not right.

        Whatever choice someone wants to make about their sexuality is theirs to make alone. Peer pressuring, teasing, criticizing or shaming someone into changing their minds is forcing them to compromise their principles for someone else’s happiness. Nobody has the right to make someone else’s decisions about their own privates about them.

        I’m one of those folks who compromised. I gave my virginity to my ex and I regret it not only because he was the wrong choice but it was plain the wrong choice for me. I also want to point out I grew up with sexually liberal parents and wanting to remain a virgin was my decision alone.

        I’m tired of people implying that valuing virginity makes one a freak. Frankly if I could have done things over again I would have been willing to wait for my current husband so that we could have explored that new territory together. I think that would have been a lot more fun than spending my honeymoon deprogramming my distorted thinking about sex because of my first experiences.

        It’s not about whether you gave things a test drive or not. It’s about whether you’ve got what it takes from the neck up. The best sex organ is the brain and the best aphrodisiacs are imagination and communication, hands down.

        If one or both partners/spouses are lousy in bed it’s up to them to fix it by talking it out and being willing to use a little creativity, or if there’s deeper issues at hand, talk to someone neutral and professional about it to see what you can work out together. Just my two cents.

        • avatar stateoflove_N_Trust says:

          The point isn’t that the person is going to be a lousy lover due to inexperience.  Experience and improvement will come with time after the marriage when sex begins.  I think the big issue that people bring up is that they may be sexually incompatible in what they find they like and even more importantly, frequency. If you marry a person who only wants sex once per month and you want it every other day, well someone is going to be frustrated.

          • avatar butterfly55 says:

            Exactly!  And if you have to go to too much effort and a professional to work it out, it seems to me you are taking the fun out of it somewhere along the line.  If there is no fun, what reason is there to be doing it?

          • avatar wishuponafallingstar says:

            You don’t have to have sex before marriage to have discussed issues like the frequency of sex!

          • avatar butterfly55 says:

            There is your problem, you don’t discuss sex and the amount of times you will do it, it is something that is spontaneous and occurs because you want it, sounds like you consider it something you set up like a dental appointment. 

          • avatar butterfly55 says:

            But how do they know what type they are if they’ve never done it?  That’s my point.  I want someone I know I enjoy sex with before I marry them, not someone I have had negotiations with on a subject that is mere theory.

          • avatar butterfly55 says:

            I just believe that for most people sex before marriage is the reasonable way to do things, obviously not everyone agrees.  I wouldn’t want to get married and then find out I didn’t like sex with the person I married.  Seems that so many women still look upon sex as a chore or a duty or a weapon, not something they share with a man.  Sorry if I’m not clear.

        • avatar Briana Baran says:

          @ P S: to quote you: “I’m tired of people implying that valuing virginity makes one a freak.”

          Having standards, or convictions, does not make you a freak. Wanting to wait until marriage to experience sex does not make you a freak. But valuing “virginity”, (which I think you are defining as never having engaged in sexual intercourse) specifically, to the extent that it becomes a Gold Standard? Yes, that is at least peculiar, if not downright freakish.

          How does one actually set parameters to determine who is, and isn’t, a Virgin? For women, is it simply a matter of an unbroken hymen? Does one check for bloody sheets, then display them after the consummation of the marriage? To repeat, I’ve known women who were Proud Virgins who’d engaged in oral, anal and manual sex acts with men…numerous times…and were very cognizant of what orgasm was. But that little membrane was intact. Does that really qualify? Does a man who’s never, ever penetrated a woman vaginally, but has both received and given oral and manual sex qualify? What about masturbation…because, honestly P S, many strict, fundamentalist and Roman Catholic types think of masturbation as at least a qualifying sexual act, if not a sin, or The Sin of Self Abuse.

          How about girls who promise their Virginity to their fathers at Purity Balls? They even marry their fathers in essence, by vowing to be True To Them and receiving a Purity Promise ring. Talk about a twisted, anachronistic ceremony of Truly Biblical nature (go read the Old Testament, and your early histories of the area to understand the rituals involved…Virgin Sacrifice and selling daughters to certain deities as Temple Courtesans and Vestal Virgins) o, and the whole vaguely incestuous nature of the thing, plus providing a platform for missed expectations, tragic disappointment, and familial disaster. Over…Virginity.

          So, waiting until you find the right person (or for marriage…not necessarily the same thing), fine. Valuing Virginity for its own sake? Oy gevalt.

          And now for something completely different. You also said: “If one or both partners/spouses are lousy in bed it’s up to them to fix it by talking it out and being willing to use a little creativity, or if there’s deeper issues at hand, talk to someone neutral and professional about it to see what you can work out together.”

          No, P S, it really can’t always be worked out, not be talking, or being creative, or with the help of a professional. It isn’t even about one or both partners being “lousy in bed” every time. There’s this thing, it’s called sexual incompatibility. You’ve heard of it? Two people who are never going to be on the same page when it comes to matters of the flesh. The heart and mind may be willing…but the sexuality doesn’t work. Some people accept this and stay together…but usually it is an uneasy truce in which one is content, and the other, well, the other is always bordering on misery, unsatisfied and discontented.

          Now I will tell you that experiencing sex with another person does not necessarily provide proof of later sexual compatibility. I know this personally (anecdotally), and the statistics bear this out as well as far as marriage is concerned. One can be deceived by a partner who tries hard, and succeeds, to impress while, shall we say, “courting” an individual who is much desired as a permanent part of a relationship, then becomes someone…or something…completely different, once the honeymoon is over. Women do this as well as men. Also, if one partner is much less experienced than the other, he or she can be A) unaware that the other is incompetent, or uncaring, or pretending, B) unaware of what his or her true desires, responses, likes, dislikes, and even, ahem, peculiarities may be, or C) may even grow in a completely different direction than the experienced partner, despite all efforts to the contrary, and the two may prove to be completely incompatible. All of these can take time to make an appearance.

          However, it is wise to have some notion of each others’ inhibitions, mores, perceptions of limits, fears, curiosities, fantasies and revulsions before marrying. During the Victorian Era, young women all too frequently had no idea what sexual intercourse entailed (none. period. End of story), what male genitalia looked like in any state, or even what masturbation felt like. And young men may have experienced a prostitute…if their father’s took them to one…but the experience would have been hurried, in the dark, and the woman undoubtedly well-used (that very hour, likely), unresponsive (with good reason, from numbness caused by alcohol, laudenum and systematic abuse for years) and not the virgin, clueless, terrified bride he’d be faced with on his wedding night. Such a recipe for disaster was this that marriages were sometimes not consummated for weeks, or even months…and some brides ran away, literally jumping out of windows, and even committed suicide when faced with the awful truth. While today’s people are usually better educated (really, though? If so, why do so many believe that pregnancy cannot occur the first time, standing up, in water, from the back or if one douches? Why letters like Thursday’s from LW1 & 2?), it is better to have full disclosure before entering into a relationship, even if it’s only based on thought, opinion and fantasy.

          And I would certainly engage in a little hands-on…because even kissing and touching of the most discreet and restrained sort can let you know if that “special person’s” touch makes you anxious for your wedding night…or makes you think twice. Or disgusts you to the point of nausea.

          Something to consider, from the Keyboard of the Cynical Yenta.

      • avatar wishuponafallingstar says:

        If the marriage is built on other things, such as common values, anything can be worked through, lousy sex included.

        • avatar butterfly55 says:

          So if you put so little value on sex, why make the big deal out of saving it for marriage?  Doesn’t seem to me you can have it both ways.  I don’t look at sex as something to be worked through, I see it as the fun time, obviously you don’t.

        • avatar Briana Baran says:

          “Lousy sex” (definition please). Do you mean sex between two people who have yet to discover what works for themselves or each other, sex in which one person is always giving and the other always taking…and the taker will never give, sex in which one person is disinterested for a whole plethora of reasons physiological, emotional or mental…or any combination thereof, or sex in which the parties are completely incompatible sexually…and will always be, regardless of excellent communication, counseling, or shared beliefs, respect, love and every other commonality under the sun?

          All of the above can be cured in some way…except the last. Some people decide to make a relationship work even when it is sexually dysfunctional…and I suppose that for some, an unbalanced, infrequent, uncomfortable or non-existent sex life in marriage works…because they share all other common ground. Just reading Margo’s column ought to tell you just how many people in this position, male and female, are utterly miserable: “I love him/her, am still IN love with him/her…but there is no sex, we aren’t on the same schedule, he wants THIS, she wants THAT and after x-years I still can’t, won’t…we aren’t on the same page no matter how much we talk, marriage counselor, therapy…”. Are you going to say that these people are not trying hard enough? If so, that would be terribly harsh.

          For far too many people, especially in marriages, the way to solve sexual issues in a marriage is to endure without pleasure (women) or do without (both sexes). Quite the solution, eh? Because they’re sharing all other things, and in love, you see. Love can and usually includes difficulties, but it should not encompass misery.

        • avatar Lucy Henry says:

          You can admire and respect a person, have common values and enjoy spending time with them, and have NO sexual chemistry with them whatsoever. You don’t really know until you actually do the deed. If you’re OK with a companion/roommate marriage that’s one thing, but if you expect sex to be an important part of your relationship, I would say it’s vital to know what you’re getting into before marrying.

          • avatar Lucy Henry says:

            Oh and P.S. to Mom, the reason waxing has caught on is because most WOMEN prefer not having the 70’s porn star look, especially at the beach or pool, even if we aren’t currently seeing anyone.

          • avatar blue tooth says:

            What’s the 70’s porn star look?

          • avatar David Bolton says:

            Watch a 70s porn and concentrate on one of the female players on a scene where she’s getting it hard on the washer. The difference is glaringly obvious—the washer is avocado, harvest gold or rust brown instead of stainless steel.

          • avatar Briana Baran says:

            One does not need to be completely bare to prevent the “70’s Porn star look” (definition: enough hair to require a machete to find the objective…or looking like one has a full-blown Afro on one’s crotch). Not everyone is that hirsute to begin with, and careful trimming can eliminate the excessive fuzz effect. This can be accomplished even if one is wearing a minute string bikini. I know this to be true. Been there, done that…long ago.

        • avatar blue tooth says:

          Yes, if the marriage is built on other things but not sex, meaning if sex is not important to you, lousy sex will not be a big deal.

  9. avatar Jrz Wrld says:

    Ew, kid, who are you hanging out with? First, 22 and a virgin is no big deal. Get to 30, and we can discuss something to complain about. And no offense, but step away from Mama, because I think she might be giving you just as warped a view as these guys you’ve been hanging with. (It sounds like she read “The Rules” at one point, and that’s the worst guide to dating EVER.)

    How do I put this? You be you – concentrate on becoming MORE you.

    -First, take a step beyond your current social circle, because even if you like the chicks you hang with, THEY’RE apparently content with sub-par guys. I’m NOT saying ditch your friends – just make some more friends. Look for them in places/groups you wouldn’t normally consider.

    -Join some groups on MeetUp you might be interested in. Try new situations.

    -Go on OKCupid, maybe. Be clear about your expectations. Spend a few emails corresponding with the guy before you call him or go out with him.

    -Do not expect to meet guys in clubs or bars. When you make new friends with similar outlooks to yours, let them know you are looking and ask them if they have any friends that would be suitable.

    -Don’t carry your virginity around like a prize you’re waiting to bestow. It’s also not a terrible secret. It simply is. If after a few dates, it seems like things are going in that direction and you have good vibes, go with it.

    -Make friends with guys. My platonic friendships with guys have kind of given me insight into how they work – and how to spot a good one.

    Really, I think the best thing you could do is get a part-time retail job at a store that sells something you’re interested in that also staffs both men and women. For me, it was a large bookstore – I got an entirely new set of very interesting friends, who have given me a different perspective on things.

    You’re young. There’s plenty of time to find someone, and nothing wrong with holding the current crop of guys at arm’s length. Just don’t get bitter or jaded. Know what you want and be prepared to wait to get it. In the meantime, grow and have fun.

  10. avatar Cindy Marek says:

    …and let’s not forget STD’s. After 3 decades of AIDS/HIV, I’m still surprised people are so blase about sex. I work medical, and trust me: STD’s are still out there! Don’t give in to the wolves. I wish more women of the younger generation had GENUINE SELF-ESTEEM to not so quickly cheapen themselves.

    Men never respect an easy gal.

    I repeat: Men NEVER respect an easy gal.

    • avatar P S says:

      So true! If anything, does it seem to you like people are even MORE reckless about sex than they were back then?

      • avatar Briana Baran says:

        Abstinence Only sex education? Refusing to explain anything having to do with reality to kids…just telling them “Don’t. Do. That.”? Extreme entitlement and the idea that the Entitled are bullet-proof (no longer exclusive to teens who haven’t developed the necessary brain functions to understand risk and responsibility…one of the groups in which HIV and other STD infections are increasing at a frighteningly rapid rate is divorced women over 45). Thinking that a Wonder Pill can cure AIDs and every other STD?

        Really?

        Really.

    • avatar butterfly55 says:

      keep thinking that

    • avatar blue tooth says:

      Cindy, some men actually believe that women enjoy sex as much as they do, and they don’t consider women who enjoy sex, and are open about it, as “easy gals.” They also don’t consider them to be women who “cheapen themselves.” They actually consider them to be honest, mature women.

      Of course there’s a difference between a mature woman who enjoys sex and treats it as a part of life, and an immature person who has a skewed view of sex, either sex is bad and should be avoided, or sex is a weapon to use to get what she wants, or sex is the way to get a man to love her. Not saying anything bad about women or young women. There are plenty of men who feel insecure or lonely or powerless and look at sex as a cure for all that, an ego boost, a chance to put some notches on their belts. That’s just as wrong.

      All I can say is, thank god for the woman who is open and honest about sex, and thank god for the man who feels the same way. One thing I can say for that kind of man is, he doesn’t feel right if the woman doesn’t enjoy it just as much as he does. For that kind of man, giving pleasure and receiving pleasure are just as important. And I think the woman feels the same way. And those kind of people are the ones who really enjoy it, and sex is a wonderful part of their lives, and beyond sex is the true intimacy that comes with it. After all, what kinds of things are shared when two people rest in each other’s arms after a wonderful night of making love? And how often do you hear those kinds of things while sitting at a table drinking coffee in the middle of the day?

      (I’m not talking about those guys who fall asleep right after. Those guys are still pigs. :-)
      )

  11. avatar David Bolton says:

    LW1: Oh my!

    LW2: Oh please.

  12. avatar D C says:

    Dear Sally (LW1), we should talk.  I have a 23 year old daughter who feels exactly the same, only she has gone so far (due to the deep dive she has taken into her church/religion) as to have become part of a culture that doesn’t “allow” dating.  The gentlemen that are interested in the ladies are to make their interest known to a known close friend of the lady who caught their eye, and, basically, ask permission to “pursue” her.  I think that’s all a bit too Victorian for my not-so-delicate sensibilities, but hey, whatever works for you, right?  She has seen several friends go into serious relationships in the last couple of years, and she is becoming the last girl standing.  It breaks my heart in a way, because I wonder if any guy will ever live up to her standards.  There was one that she really thought God was giving her the go-ahead for, and he ended up “pursuing” someone else.  That didn’t work out and the girl gave him the boot after a couple of weeks.  And it’s not like you can just say “oh well, that didn’t work out, let’s move on to the next girl” in that situation.  He’s pretty much out of commission in that culture for a while now. 

    I am trying hard to believe that there is a special someone for my daughter, and for yours as well, and when they come along, our daughters will be just right for them.  It hurts to see our children pine away for love, especially when they have seen it at home, and know that Mom and Dad were much younger when they found each other, and now that college is over, it gets harder and harder to find a dating pool. 

    Sally… hang in there.  And tell your daughter there are men out there who want more than a blow-up doll for the night.  They are worth digging through the pile for. 

  13. avatar B.eadle says:

    I would wonder how virgin whore is acting/dressing if EVERY GUY SHE MEETS just wants to take her to bed.

    What is that saying…? If it seems that everyone you encounter has a problem, something tells me, the problem is you.

  14. avatar nikkylee says:

    LW2, I think maybe the issue is who you’re hanging around. Do most of your friends see themselves as having celebrity figures as wll? No offense, but the whole “virgin whore” and being seen as “sexually experienced” makes me think you’re something like a great number of girls our age.. wearing mini-skirts and low-cut tops and wondering why guys stare. Sorry, but I’m also very mature for my age and I don’t think anyone’s ever told me I come off as excessively “sexually experienced”, and I was raised in a family that’s perfectly comfortable chatting in detail about our sex lives with each other.

    Now, I don’t know you beyond your letter, so take all that for what it’s worth, that’s just the impression I got. If I’m pretty close, you should know that the “beautiful people” club tends to have a higher ratio of jerks and whores, if only because they’re able to get it elsewhere pretty easily. Not everyone, of course, but it’s almost kind of expected. I don’t mean any of that to be condescending, I have several younger sisters, two almost my age and I’m talking from what I’ve seen in their boyfriends and their friends. Please don’t take that as a “you MUST settle for the hideous nice guy or you’re screwed!”. I’m just talking about the Jersey Shore, bleach-blonde, fake tan, better-than-everyone types.

    I’m friends with a lot of guys, more than girls, and I don’t think any of them are the pigs you’re worried about. They want sex, sure, but hey, so do I. They’re all just as interested in long-term relationships as any of the women I know. I mean, I met my current boyfriend when I was 16. He ended up asking me out because I was willing to make out with him and the other girl he’d liked wouldn’t. I was far from slutty (he was the first boy I’d even kissed), and despite the less-than-romantic start we’ve been together for almost 8 years and he was more than willing to wait for sex, and to back off on everything else if I needed it.

    Anyway, long story short… maybe take a look at the type of people you’re spending time with. The bar and party scene is NOT the best place for romance. Take a class or join a group, a gym, something you like to do. There’s plenty of decent guys out there, if you’re not actively trying to find a flaw.

  15. avatar momis says:

    What is wrong with waxing, other than the pain and the time it takes to do it on your own? If I could go get it done on a regular basis I will because I’m tired of shaving every day and having the razor bumps…

    Anyways. I’m 30 and currently not married but I have a boyfriend that lives overseas for now (not really relevent info). I’ve experienced some of what both mother and daughter are talking about: men asking you to go their house or apartment for a date. I went once and he tried to bed me but I wouldn’t have it and I never saw him again. No big deal, no harsh feelings.

    Like other folks have said already, this “hooking up” phenomenon is nothing new and not exclusive of my generation. Older relatives and acquaintances have described similar dating issues of their times so I really don’t think the problem is as bad as the mom and daughter state…at least no significantly worst than the previous generation.

    The way the daughter describes herself makes me wonder how she dresses and presents herself to others. Maybe she is sending the wrong signals but if she indeed has a figure like Kim K maybe it is just hard to dress modestly and still come across as “sexually experienced”.  I was going to suggest to put dating off until she is working and meets other proffesionals and maybe in that environment they will be more likely to see her for who she really is but then again, maybe she already is done with college and working. I don’t know what other thing I could suggest other than trying to find a suitable date in a bible study group or a book club.

    • avatar Briana Baran says:

      “What is wrong with waxing…”.

      Nothing, if you’re into it, and you haven’t got sensitive skin, a tendency toward ingrown hairs, or you are unfortunate enough to get an infection in unmentionable places.

      There is a sub-culture, however, that insists upon everyone being baby-bottom bare for reasons of “cleanliness” (ask your gynecologist: I did. My information is that trimming is much safer. The hairs protect the inner bits from invasive bacteria and particulate matter, and also keep internal secretions from irritating outer skin, and, well, leaking. Cleanliness is a personal matter dependent on your individual hygiene habits. To be blunt: a Brazilian waxed woman can be as unclean and smelly as one who neatly trims. Also, all waxing causes follicular irritation…and this leaves anyone who does it ripe for infection for one to four days afterward [which is why you should be very careful about sexual activity after waxing]). There is another set who get their ideas from the ’90’s porn culture that showed all women hairless, as well as manga and anime…Japanese animation and comic art that always shows women with very child-like faces…and fully developed bodies…often in sexually suggestive situations. Their is also full-blown adult anime and manga that varies from the erotic to the pornographic. I do find something disturbing about being viewed in any way as a child…not an adult woman…while also being appreciated as a sexual being.

      Finally, I don’t care how convincing removing the bushes can be with regards to the size of the tree…their absence really does not make it grow and higher or greater in girth.

      Me, I’m not into ripping that many hairs out my the roots. My eyebrows are enough, and I sometimes curse the day my mother told me that it was The Law of The Land for women to shave their legs. Despite being half-Italian, and dark complected, I am barely fuzzy anywhere…yet I am compelled by fear of the Hair Hatred Nazis to pick up that razor and depilatate.

  16. avatar David Bolton says:

    Between all the back-patting and histrionics, it’s hard to tell if either of these letters is actually serious.

    Assuming that they are—here’s some observations.

    One—the generalization that the modern “date” has devolved into something approaching an escort service is ridiculous. Yes, some girls are sluts. Others are not. I have known—and been—both. The drive for sexual experimentation is both normal and healthy, within reason. It will also vary with time.

    Two—that said… in about three years, the central question of your enigma is going to go from “what’s she all about?” to “what’s wrong with her?” I don’t make the rules—but that’s the way it is. You come across as savvy, but with no common sense. Go develop some—at your own pace. If this means playing with girls (which I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find is the case here), then have at it.

    • avatar P S says:

      “Two—that said… in about three years, the central question of your enigma is going to go from “what’s she all about?” to “what’s wrong with her?” ”

      David, the question of “What’s wrong with her?” starts in their TEENS, and that isn’t something new. I got crap in high school well over two decades ago because I didn’t have a boyfriend. What ever happened to simply wanting to focus on your studies and having fun with friends? Geez.

      • avatar David Bolton says:

        Hey—don’t shoot the messenger. Even the mother thinks there’s something wrong with “the system” when her daughter doesn’t want to date at 22.

        But, as others have pointed out—I have to wonder how the daughter presents herself both in clothing and attitude, especially since she comes across as a tease in her letter. And while a little sassiness and confidence is sexy—a purity ring on a slut is not.

  17. avatar P S says:

    “It seems that girls of her generation have created a situation where the young man summons the young woman to his apartment to “hook up.” ”

    … and just what makes you blame ONLY the girls or think they created this? Stereotyping much, lady?

    • avatar mamamama17 says:

      I don’t think that’s a stereotype at all.

      Women forget how strong and powerful they are! Men in pursuit of sex will do whatever it takes to get sex. If all they have to do is text a girl and she shows up at his door, that’s all he’ll do. If she requires that he wines and dines her first, he’ll do that.

      And it is human nature to appreciate more what it takes hard work to get 😉

      • avatar chuck alien says:

        or the idea that “summoning” means anything to anybody, anywhere.

        it doesn’t surprise me that a guy would ask a girl to come over and have sex with him. i mean… why wouldn’t he? OF COURSE he wants that.

        IT DOESN’T MEAN SHE HAS TO GO.

        i mean… seriously. summoned? by who, the king?

        don’t blame the guy for asking. blame the girl for responding.

  18. avatar butterfly55 says:

    Only one question, how did the mother have a baby when she was in her 80’s or older?  I grew up in the 60’s and we certainly didn’t have those rituals she describes for dating, my mom is 82.

  19. avatar Katie themick says:

    Jesus Facepalming Christ.

    To the mom: No, that’s not how everyone thinks, especially the wax and wipes thing, what the fricking frack? Real life is not Sex and the City and just because you read some hand wringing article about how Kids These Days are Sluts! Who don’t date! They just bang! It doesn’t mean it’s reality. Yes, courtship has changed. Yes, figuring out the dating world can be tough. Geez.

    To the daughter: Yeah, it’s not a stigma. Just wait until you’re comfortable doing it. You’re 22, not 32. And you know what? Even if you were 32, who cares? No one has a right to that information unless you want to share it with them anyway. You don’t sound very mature — but you don’t have to! You are 22. Chill. Go get drinks with your friends and make out with someone or something.

    • avatar Advice Lover says:

      THANK YOU.

      And by the way, these people can’t be for real.

      My reaction was PUHLEASE.

      • avatar David Bolton says:

        My initial reaction last night at midnight was:

        LW1: “Cherished daughter! Come hither, for I have an important missive to share about waxing and pe-moistened infant towelettes! The time for you to find a suitor is nigh!”
        LW2: “My Mother—get thee hence into the larder and prepare dinner to my Father’s liking whilst I away to the library to compose a reply and sonnets to thine insanity. And durst thou believe this thong goeth with my leopardskin stillettos?”

        Or some such. There was much eyerolling.

  20. avatar stateoflove_N_Trust says:

    Are you kidding me with the letters this week?  I think neither the Mom nor the daughter know what they are talking about.  Certainly, people hook up alot these days, but it is not just the expectations of the men that are driving it.  Young women are wanting to engage in this behavior too.

    Further, if you are only getting invitations to the home’s of strangers, then I wonder where you are hanging out to find these guys.  I assume you are talking about hanging out at a bar, which will get you a large share of invites back to someone’s home.   Meeting people in other public places generally will not get you immediate invites to someone’s home unless the guys are exceedingly bold.  That is not the norm. 

    Finally, it sounds like you don’t have alot of experience with guys.  Most of the guys out who are interested in you are also going to be interested in you sexually.  That is actually a good thing.  Some of those guys will be interested in getting to know you.  While most probably will not turn down sex if you offer; alot of them would be willing to wait a reasonable amount of time until you are ready.  Some may even wait until marriage if that is what you want.

  21. avatar R Scott says:

    LW1 – Wow. You know an awful lot about hooking-up (brazillians, baby wipes?), That’s kind of creepy.  Dates happen all the time and they’re just as miserable as they always were  :-)

    LW2 – Really? “Virgin Whore”? For some reason I flashed on Kate Blanchette as QEI when I read that. Anyhoo. . .. Here’s a thought: rather than be all into youself as an “enigmantic Kim Kardashian” why don’t you learn to say something like, “Ask me on a date and we’ll talk about it then”. If they don’t then you dodged a bullet. If they do then you’re going on a date. You’re 22 and in college. Start figuring out how to talk to men. Keep going as you are and you’re not going to a Virgin Whore. You’ll just be a prick tease.

  22. avatar Kathy says:

    Both letters are strange, and could be phony.  The mother of a 22 year old is likely in her early to mid fifties – like me – and “came of age” during the seventies – that would be the NINETEEN seventies.  Young guys were ‘after one thing’ back then, too.  I don’t recall one of them picking me up in a carriage and taking me to the town social.  The easy access to online porn has likely shaped how young men believe young women’s bodies should look.  But women are still in the driver’s seat when it comes to sex, and no guy who finds a woman as stunningly appealing as this gal claims to be would summon her for a booty call and hand her some baby wipes when she gets there.  This is way out of left field and I’ll likely get pummeled for it, but is it possible she’s gay and this is the reality she created so she doesn’t have to be honest with mom? 

    • avatar David Bolton says:

      “is it possible she’s gay and this is the reality she created so she doesn’t have to be honest with mom?”

      Sounds good to me.

      • avatar Kriss says:

        “is it possible she’s gay and this is the reality she created so she doesn’t have to be honest with mom?”

        I think Kathy & David are on to something.  I thought the same thing myself.

    • avatar JCF4612 says:

      Kathy: You may well be on to something … Either that, or maybe a LW1 and LW2 are one and the same, just whomping up a a couple of phony-baloney letters to Margo.

  23. avatar Briana Baran says:

    “I’ve yet to read the other comments, but I hope all of you are lambasting these letter writers with the same ire given to the Nice Guys who ask why “all women” are gold diggers and want a jerk instead of a “nice guy.””

    Sigh. Always, when a woman, or women, receive negative commentary, someone has to righteously ask whether, should it be a man, he would be called out for similar ignorance and perhaps suspect behavior. In my case, a man who whines incessantly about “gold diggers and bad girls who only want him for his money” is probably a doughy potato who flaunts his financial state in order to get attention…because he has an unpleasant personality, is possibly unattractive, and may even have halitosis and gorilla arm-pit odor (GAPO, for the uninitiated)…and the only way to get female attention is to wave platinum cards and Benjamins around. Alternatively, he may actually be nice looking and a good guy, but utterly clueless (like Virgin Whore, maybe?), who doesn’t realize that regularly revealing his over-sized income guarantees a greater degree of attention from women who are interested in a House in the Hamptons, no kitchen, no bedroom…but lots of diamonds, furs, European vacations, cosmetic surgery for life, The It Life, $1000 a plate dinners, and a personal massage therapist, hair stylist, cosmetician, kabbalah leader, trainer…

    Again, it’s all about mind-set, and presentation, and what you want out of life. And how you set about getting it. No double standards here…but this wasn’t a father and son whine tasting, and no one is “lambasting” the LW’s…just asking when 1’s last reality check was written…and suggesting that 2 might want to make out her very first in her own name.

  24. avatar BeanCounter says:

    Any person who says “All Men are……(insert generality)” or “All Women are….(insert generality)”, are people who have no clue what they’re doing in this life and feel the need to put the unknown in compartmentalized boxes in their mind that serve a purpose to make them feel like they have control over their universe, when in reality, they’re just lost unhappy unrealistic fools.  

    This woman who looks down upon women who “give it up so easily” is a prude who is unable to understand the complex dynamics of relationships that extend outside of her boring “Saturday night tease date”, and her daughter has inherited her mother’s superiority complex to a fault.   I’m sure the mother also probably wrote the second letter, or the two girls took one of those Saturday nights to write letters together over hot chocolate watching the movie “Thelma and Louise”, and Margo posted these bland letters because of the novelty of posting Mother/Daughter letters.

    Ladies…..get out of your head and out of your a$$, and while you may think you’re super-observant so much so that you can judge a man’s character just by a single look, you’re just a sad pathetic bunch of women overanalyzing a rather simple situation, and you’ll never know unless you talk to them or….heaven forbid….you ask THEM out on a coffee date!!!!  *gasp*!

  25. avatar flyonthewall says:

    I am shaking my head at these two letter writers. Have no idea where mom gets this “hookup culture” from and where daughter gets that “all men are only after sex”. A mother and a daughter who have a strange sense of reality, I guess. Both are in desperate need of getting out into the real world and opening up their eyes.

  26. avatar Francisco Valls says:

    My best friend from college was a virgin when she got married. Furthermore, she and her husband (both devoted Catholics) decided not to have sex until their wedding night. Now, 8 years later and three children, they are as happy as they can be. If you are willing to wait a little longer than the average girl (and by the way, I see nothing wrong with having sex prior to marriage, but we all get to decide what we want), you will find ‘the one” that was worth the wait.

    • avatar blue tooth says:

      If I remember correctly, the divorce numbers for those who married as virgins is about the same as for those who weren’t.

    • avatar Phillip Koons says:

      I had a friend who did much the same thing. Her and her husband waited until their wedding night to have sex.

      She’s miserable now (and sex is one of their many issues).

      Just because you wait doesn’t guarantee you a happy ending.

  27. avatar Phillip Koons says:

    LW1: I’m not really sure what the question is. Are you mad that she’s not dating or are you made because some people have casual sex (regardless of age) ?

    LW2: The first thing I wondered is how much you are projecting this “Guys are only trying to get in my pants” attitude. If you start off immediately with those preconceived notions of every man you meet, you’re going to be a virgin for a long time. No man will ever get the chance to prove you wrong. Then you went on to talk about how desirable you were, I get the feeling that you really enjoy the attention and sexual tension that it causes as well. Confidence is good. Purposefully teasing is bad.

  28. avatar TheTexasMom says:

    My oldest daughter was 25 and working in her first year as a Prosecutor in Cook County when she married.  In planning the wedding I tried to get them to push it back  6 months, for family reasons.  My now son-in-law pulled me to the side and explained, in plain English, that my daughter was a virgin and he rather not wait.   While I suspected her a virgin I found this quite humorous but my point is: she never would have called herself a virgin whore and never complained of guys only after her for one thing.  She attended a large public college (Hook ‘em Horns), dated, partied and had a large circle of friends both male and female.  LW2 needs to find a new hangout.  And I suspect she is projecting more than her Kim K. butt!

    • avatar chuck alien says:

      “She attended a large public college (Hook ‘em Horns)”

      truly adorable that he believed her.

      • avatar TheTexasMom says:

        Chuck, you actually made me laugh!  That was funny!!  But you would have to know her, and him with her to know it’s more than likely true.  It can happen, seriously it can.

        • avatar chuck alien says:

          LOL. I know, i know. that was more a roundabout swipe at UT than anything. :)

          that is really charmingly old-fashioned, that you were trying to push it back and he was trying to explain that he really, REALLY would rather it was now! That must have been an awkward-yet-funny conversation… “but why does it have to be NOW, son?”

          It sounds like an old screwball comedy movie… I remember when i finally realized WHY people in old movies always seemed to be in a rush to get married. “Married” then means what “dating” does now.

          • avatar TheTexasMom says:

            Well it was easy to believe because her dad (Ohio St.) was a virgin when we began dating (awkward) but not when we married. Hey, you have to draw the line somewhere!!

            And in regards to UT, I’m so tired of the UT/TAMU, Big12/SEC debacle, it just makes you want to dial it back to the good old days of the SWC.

  29. avatar Deborah Key says:

    Where is the like button?  Two thumbs up for Texas Mom!

  30. avatar snowwhite4577 says:

    I am thinking this Kim K. Virginwhore woman does not have as much confidence as she thinks she does….the way she presents herself in the letter is as someone who is faking confidence.  Because if you really had all the confidence you are talking about…you would know that all men are NOT looking for one thing.

  31. avatar Briana Baran says:

    By the way, I do not think the letters are hoaxes perpetrated by trolls. Having led the sort of life that has allowed me to meet all sorts of interesting people, let me assure everyone that yes, there are people as sanctimonious and ignorant as darling Sally…and clueless, perhaps in need of a bit of introspection, a serious check of how they project themselves, and how others actually perceive them versus how they BELIEVE that others perceive them as (I squirm in disbelief) our self-labeled Virgin Whore (I still don’t know what this means. It is crazy making. I imagine a young woman in Lolita dress…like cos-play. So very wrong).

    Also women who believe that loose women with no morals are ruining life for Good Girls, and other women who are convinced that All Men Want Is Sex. All Men…meaning every male on the planet. I suppose that means dead ones as well. I know that this can cause cognitive dissonance for many. It’s the human condition. So it goes.

  32. avatar Sadie BB says:

    LW2 – I have read your letter & the responses to it & all I can saw is wow, what a bunch of crabby old farts who have forgotten what it is to be young.

    You seem quite self-involved…but then, you’re young. And you probably do look like Kim Kardashian, After all, you’re young! It’s just nature’s way of giving some advantage to the inexperienced female of unproven fertility. In my profession I work with a lot of young people and all the young gals look annoyingly fabulous, all the time! Some of them better than Kim, in my opinion.

    I am 25 years your senior and the attitude that a woman should just put out on command is nothing new…what is new is that a lot of young girls don’t see it for the BS it is. I too had the experience that holding out gave me a strange fascination in some men’s eyes. While ego-flattering and an example to your more gullible sisters it really gets a little creepy after a while. But certainly there is no reason to put up with the tedious pokings of some clueless young pup just to prove you are a real woman.

    Two pieces of advice:

    First, do not label yourself with derogatory terms like ‘Virgin Whore’ even to be funny. It just gives an opportunity for jealous people to snipe at you.

    And I think the reason you & your mom wrote the letters is out of concern that your high standards (or as they used to be known – ‘standards’) will cause you to miss out altogether. I did not meet my soul mate until I was 30..but he was worth the wait. I did have a few relationships up until then either but the guy did not have that special ‘spark’ for me or vice versa.

    Attraction is a mysterious thing and even a outwardly suitable mate may not give you that zing. So my second piece of advice is that you keep swimming around in the same old pond you will meet the same old guppies. You need to meet a LOT of men to find that special one. (and I do mean ‘meet‘, not ‘sleep with‘) Get outside your usual circles to maximize your chances.

    Good luck., VW. I don’t see a lot of attractive women sitting around alone even into their 30s & 40s unless they have SERIOUS mental issues. (Because much like ‘holding out‘, moderate mental issues can make you even more attractive to men. )

    • avatar Briana Baran says:

      Mmm…Sadie BB? You’re an old fart too. Just saying. And I find your comment about “tedious poking” hilarious. O my word (which would probably offend you mightily). Dear, no one, 22 or 32 or 52 looks fabulous all of the time…not even the Angelinas, Giselles, Marilyns, or Demis…not anyone. And not all young women are Kim Kardashian (hardly, her figure is, in fact, quite unusual amongst the aspiring toward the celestial realm of rumored beauty. Most twenty-something women share a Northern European frame…flat hips, flat backside, higher, wider hips, less waist definition, longer limbs, and a thicker upper body versus an actually larger bust. And most struggle desperately to achieve that size 0-1, hence creating that heroin chic look). Why do you suppose that breast and buttock implants have become so ridiculously popular in the very young? Coat hanger bodies with unnatural protrusions. And a lot of women look healthy, sensuous, fully sexual and attractive (this isn’t the ’50’s…18- or 19-…you know) in their 40’s, 50’s, 60’s and onward. It’s called evolving. You don’t even need cosmetic surgery…just a healthy lifestyle, attitude, confidence, curiosity and an active mind. Age before beauty? No, dear. Sometimes it really can be pearls before swine.

      I see a lot of attractive young women who do NOT sleep around, and also do NOT label themselves “Virgin Whore”, have problems with men soley seeking them out for sex, and do not speak of themselves in quite the hyperbolic terms our LW does. Kim Kardashian figure. Extreme confidence, Mysterious and enigmatic. Exuding sexual experience. Really? Right. The young women I know are delightful, lovely, not lacking for men wanting dates, confident and bright. Why would I be jealous of them? I have a wonderful 17 year marriage to my best friend, my lover, my partner, the father of my children that still has sparks flying everywhere. I am not in competition with those 20+ years my junior. I like young women, and I wish them success and happiness. My son will marry one someday, I hope. One who doesn’t think he’s a clueless pup, or just after sex, or that she’s A Gift, along with her Sanctified Virginity.

      I think you may have a few, ahem, issues, dear. Nothing mysterious about virginity. It either is, or it isn’t. Pretending it’s some sort of enigma (Goshers, why doesn’t someone that hot just give it up?) is ridiculous. O, sorry, you were obviously one of those “special someones” who was “holding out”. Do you really think that “holding out” (do you know what an antiquated term that is, and the kind of negative connotations and resonance it has for a lot of people?) set an example for “gullible girls”? What a hoity-toity snob you are. Insufferable. A perfect example of the sort who thinks of themselves as Special, Better, Above…and all because of an unbroken membrane. Really?

      I don’t know of anyone who ever tolerated the “tedious pokings of a clueless young pup” to prove she was a woman. I certainly didn’t. I was sexually assaulted by a very clued in old predator. I do know a few women like yourself who Held Out to Prove Themselves Superior Women. Who had herself “a few relationships” before meeting her (wait for it, try not to throw up in your mouth, even a little) “soul mate” (gag, glargh, worst term in the history of True Love). So, dahlink, what are a “few” relationships”? Just curious, you know. Since you hold yourself in such high esteem, and must have Given It Up To The One. Or not, since you didn’t find True Love and your…ergh…Soul…Mate…until after a few trials and errors. Or Epic Fails. You must really have had some Standards. Boy Howdy!

      O, so, howdy do, about those mental issues. Minor or major, they are not something that is mysterious or alluring (unless you’ve got a Messiah, Pygmallion/Psychiatrist or some other Healing Complex…or you’re a hair…off). They don’t define a person, they aren’t cute or sexy, and they aren’t part of one’s persona. Well, unless you want them to be. You did mention them, you know, bring them up as potentially appealing. I’ve never heard of a man who found moderate mental issues attractive, but maybe you have personal experience in this matter…? With your…cringe…Soul Mate? Inquiring minds want to know. You brought it up.

      If I were Virgin Whore, I’d run screaming from your advice, you sanctimonious old biddy. But I’m not, I’m a cynical, sardonic, soulless (so I’ve been informed a time or two on this board), old hard case who has very limited tolerance for people in serious need of a reality check.

      So it goes. Feh.

      • avatar Sadie BB says:

        Jeez Briana…project much? Here’s your reality check.
        Yes I am an old fart. And darned proud of it! Why? Did you think it was something to be ashamed of?
        You seem to be the one with an issue. Free your inner hag and break loose instead of hatin‘ on your peers!
        My technical profession is filled with diverse & bright young people so I can confidently say
        1. A lot of non-Northern Europeans women do indeed resemble Kim K..at least in their younger years. Mostly I work with non-NE., but here in LA even the NE gals look like her. And they all feel the pressure to ‘hook up’. Perhaps those wonderful young ladies you speak of don’t confide this to you (maybe because you throw up when you hear the phrase ‘soul mate’? )
        2. Sorry, but mental issues can make an already attractive woman absolutely irresistible to certain men and nothing you say to the smitten one will sway them. I can’t believe you haven’t noticed the phenomenon.. They’ve written entire books about it. Shelves of books! I believe the genre is called ‘Self Help’
        And yes, I am special (though clearly not for virginity..) And quite funny too. Even people who don’t quite get me have to admit that I am …what was your word..…hilarious!

        • avatar Sadie BB says:

          PS. I most closely resemble an edgy, smart, Jill St John.

        • avatar Briana Baran says:

          “Free your inner hag and break loose instead of hatin‘ on your peers!”

          Why Sadie darling, isn’t that what you were doing? Accusing everyone of jealousy and being envious of young girls? Calling them “old farts” (while obviously being certain to hold yourself well above the pack) because they were attacking poor, misunderstood Virgin Whore? Really, darling heart, I do believe you unleashed your inner harpy on people who were logically questioning, not attacking, the essence of a somewhat hyperbolic and contradictory letter.

          But you, Jill St. John (am I supposed to be impressed now?), are so elevated that I’m to…what…withdraw into silence. Why? Because you’re in LA (land of lost and lonely plastic-fantastic hopefuls and more cosmetic surgeons than gas stations)? Again, and apologies to you for the information, but not every young woman in LA is beautiful, or has a Kardashian figure. You are deeply and abidingly delusional. There are beautiful, average and ugly young women everywhere. LA certainly doesn’t have the corner on much of anything…except a politically strapped and inefficient police force and perhaps more gang related problems than anywhere else in the country. And more disillusioned actors, singers and etc. working as waitresses, waiters, prostitutes, washing cars, dealing drugs…and eventually rotting on the vine…than even NYC. Waiting for that Big Break.

          I am considering your reliance on Self-Help books for your psychological information. I picture you with shelves full of them, ready at your fingertips with the latest psychobabble from the most au courant self-described Mental Health Savant celebutard’s advice for whatever might (or might not…but they’ll make you believe it does) ail you. Or your many young women. You mention a technical profession. Computer animation? Most of those women do tend to have curves…and then your statement would be essentially, if virtually, true.

          Sadie, I was not “hating on” (another loathsome phrase) my “peers”. Specifically, your post was sanctimonious and, well, to use your word, creepy. And contradictory. And a little bit delusional and weird. Yes, I know a lot of young people, who talk a great deal about their lives, dreams, desires…everything. I spent a great deal of my life helping young people, and I genuinely care about them…”beautiful” on the outside or otherwise. Also, I just suppose that I am not quite as certain of my Special Status as you: as you self-describe: edgy, smart, hilarious (I agree, but my amusement regarding you is not the sort you would appreciate), quite funny (“funny”, as in “there’s something funny about that woman”?). Anything else I should know, ducks? I do know things about myself, enough to be certain that in questioning your post I am not “hatin on” a peer. You’re not my peer. We aren’t from the same galaxy. You are merely the same general age as I am.

          By the way, toots, I haven’t ever heard a person under the age of 40 use the term “soul mate”. Ever. The first time I became aware of that gag-worthy phrase was in the late 70’s, and it was commonly used by those somewhat older than myself, who also followed the daily horoscopes (if you actually know anything about astrology and are, ah, serious about it, you know that newspaper, internet and magazine horoscopes are garbage according to the actual premises of the beliefs), smoked A Lot of Dope, and are now largely driving Beemers, Lexi and Benzes (especially useless SUV’s that will never go off-road, or carry more than three people and a pursey-dog), have a lot of expensive toys, and are worried about their Social Security and having a Liberal in the White House. Only a certain type of person uses the term…and it is still nauseating.

          So Sadie Special, I still think you’re a Snob of the First Order, who thinks she’s living, literally, with the angels. May I be saved from those who think comparing themselves to Celebrities in their Appearance will Impress and Awe. And add Edgy and Smart. Edgy? You sound more like my maiden aunt (who would be about 95 now, were she still among the living), but a bit stodgier. The only celebrity comparison I can think, vis a vis myself has nothing to do with appearance…more with imagination, other realities, world view and mental boundaries (or lack of such). That would be Clive Barker. Best I could do. I relate to his writing, ideas, art and thoughts. He doesn’t disturb, just amuses and intrigues. I have no idea if I look like anyone else. Nor do I care.

          But I am Edgy. I bite. Hard. And love and care the same way. I’m not into superficialities, or what others think. I do have extremely good friends, and people who trust me implicitly…but I don’t know why, or what they think of me, because, unlike you (obviously) I don’t ask. I don’t need the strokes. So besa mi culo, you old harpie. Feh.

          • avatar blue tooth says:

            Ouch. I remember Soul Mates from the ’60s and ’70s, but haven’t heard much of them since, except from people of that time. But then again, I’ve heard my kids use that phrase a few times, and some other young’uns, especially those who’ve OD’d on Nora Ephron movies. If you see “Sleepless in Seattle” laying in the DVD player, or Harry Met Sally, you can be sure you’ll hear that phrase eventually. :-)

          • avatar Sadie BB says:

            Briana, girl, get a grip!
            Most people don’t find the phrase ‘soul mate’ worthy of entire paragraphs of vitriol. Nor is the fact that I disagree with your views an unbelievable outrage that must be  punished with insults and unsavory speculation. I truly believe you are hinting that I am some sort of Republican! And that hurts.

            And by the way…I look BETTER than Jill St John.
            BWA HA HA awaiting the three page rant.

          • avatar Briana Baran says:

            I have a grip…on reality. Something you ought to try. Just a thought, though. Why are you so obsessed with your appearance? What compels you to keep bringing up just how wonderful and gorgeous you are? Using self-help books to find a coping mechanism for an enormous inferiority complex? I never questioned your, mmm, beauty, as it were…just your need to identify yourself as Spectacular.

            My paragraphs are actually quite brief, in the general scheme of things. I didn’t precisely disagree with you. I found your initial attack against anyone who questioned Virgin Whore obnoxious, your post self-contradictory, and your self-description sanctimonious, supercilious and a little dull. I also perceive that you are perhaps a bit literacy challenged (vis a vis comprehension) and that you seem to think your insistence on your physical charms will somehow intimidate or astound me. How droll.

            Well now. So it goes. I really don’t care to engage further in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

          • avatar Sadie BB says:

            Briana – it appears that irony is lost on you.

          • avatar Briana Baran says:

            You know, I don’t think that “irony” means what you think that it means. You seem unclear on that concept. All concepts.

            Is this post and these words short enough for you to understand?

          • avatar Sadie BB says:

            Briana – not a lot of mirrors in your galaxy, eh?

          • avatar TheTexasMom says:

            Ladies, I’m guessing neither one of you are going to take the high road and ignore each other’s bards?

            Yeah, that’s what I thought…..carry on.

          • avatar Sadie BB says:

            Texas – bards eh? That’s a cute typo !

            Very well. I shall retire to the back yard & perform my ‘End to Fertility’ dance.

          • avatar Sadie BB says:

            Anyone care to join me?

            I wave my arms a lot & strike cat-like poses

            It’s wonderfully soothing!

          • avatar TheTexasMom says:

            Sadie – I’m the world’s worst typist, just glad you could decipher.  Must remember spell check is my friend.

            And if anyone is still reading this thread, in my youth I was always told I looked like a young Diannah Carroll with a smalller forehead. HA!

          • avatar Briana Baran says:

            Just a few, and they reflect reality.

          • avatar chuck alien says:

            “My paragraphs are actually quite brief, in the general scheme of things”

            … You know, compared to the collected works of William Shakespeare, or say, pi.

            Truly a model of rationality and restraint.

          • avatar TheTexasMom says:

            There you go making me laugh again……

          • avatar Briana Baran says:

            Texas Mom, “bard” is an actual word. Spell check won’t catch it. I understand though, as I am a two-finger, two-thumbs typist. And I’m out of practice.

            What high road? I’m always being accused of being a soulless, lying, brain-damaged nut-job on this site…no matter how much sense I’m talking, how intelligently I present it, or whether I actually can write in full sentences, using the right words for the meanings I desire to convey in my comments…so why bother? No, I don’t have hurt feelings, and it amuses me to lob soft shots under bridges at the warty, gnarly denizens below. Not you…but trolls do abound on this site.

          • avatar Briana Baran says:

            chuckles, why did I know you wouldn’t be able to resist sticking your pig-ignorant opinions in? Sigh. People like you and Sadie are why I avoid this site. Trolls.

          • avatar Sadie BB says:

            Briana-
            A definition for you

            Troll – someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous or off topic messages with the intent of provoking an emotional response

            Sorry – did the mirror of irony flash by too quickly for you to see your reflection?

          • avatar David Bolton says:

            Oh for God’ sake—girls, can’t we just all agree to hate MKE?

          • avatar Sadie BB says:

            David –

            Ok, I’ll bite.

            Who’s MIKEY and why should we hate him???

          • avatar Sadie BB says:

            Manic Keyboard Episode?

          • avatar David Bolton says:

            Sadie, do you not read the column regularly?

          • avatar Sadie BB says:

            David – reading is hit or miss depending on work schedule

            But my young cube mate informs me that MKE is a guy who not as hot as he imagines!! Still can’t figure out the initials tho.

  33. avatar chuck alien says:

    Letter 1 sure started as a “my daughter is a huge slut, but i have convinced myself that everyone acts that way because i don’t like the fact that my daughter is a huge slut.”

    (also a weird side-track on her problem with women shaving. just have to grind that axe whenever you can, huh mom?)

    but that second letter changes things, for sure. lol.

    Of course “Men don’t have any respect for me because i’m so hot” doesn’t seem very tied to reality either.

    LOTS of hot girls get asked out on dates. really, they do.

    Now, how about you figure why no one wants to date you? (ps. it’s not because you are really hot. seriously.)

    the women in that family must be a real hoot.

  34. avatar Lym BO says:

    Well, that was some interesting reading. I’m in my late 30s & in “my day” no one talked about whether one a virgin or not- at least not until well into the relationship (not talking rumor crap) It was irrelevant-or was I just naive? I dunno. All of this seems very strange. Humans are humans. Everyone wants to hook up, but morally each person has to decide a what point they give it up-and how highly they value sex. Some think of it as a fun thing, others a coveted, religious thing. Virgin whore (wtf?) needs to focus more on finding like minded guys. Her mother’s perception seems way out there to me. I do certainly wonder about whether daughter is creating this smoke screen due to lesbian tendencies. The daughter’s perception of herself seems a bit over-confidant, but her she may have merely included that for insight for the readers & it may be true. So if it is the truth then she will have to search for someone who is not shallow. I think one of the best things an older male friend told me was that men often look at the girl’s mother for a glimpse of her in 15 years. Loved that! Point is you’d better find a guy (or gal) who likes you for your personality. Looks are just a short-term bonus-and that goes both ways. Go to any class reunion.

  35. avatar sunny says:

    These were some interesting letters and responses.  I was struck by the daughter’s letter — it seems to suggest that she feels objectified because of the way she looks and is turned off by the attention she gets because most of the men she interacts with seem to be after only one thing.

    As a woman in her 30s, I want to say one thing — it is important to be true to who you are.  I absolutely salute the fact that you aren’t letting yourself feel pressured into having sex. That is wonderful and important. Every person has their own ideas and needs about sex and I don’ t want to judge another person’s decisions.  But for myself, I have felt that sex should happen in the context of a loving relationship. I think sex complicates everything and when you can’t talk about your emotions openly in a trusting and loving relationship, I think it can make a lot of people feel cheap and used.  We are not just physical beings, but emotional and spiritual beings as well and sex affects everything  ….so I think it is important to be smart about it.  You don’t have to apologize to anyone for how you feel or what you value.

    The fact that you don’t want to date is a separate issue and I wonder if something has happened to you that has turned you off to it (other than what you have written).  First of all, don’t stress out about it.  You are only 22.  The reason I ask is that when I was a freshman in college, I got stalked by a guy and it freaked me out in ways I didn’t understand and couldn’t verbalize at that age.  I an Indian and I just never really dated or talked about guys with my parents at that point, (which I wish I had and did later) — so I kept a lot of it to myself and it messed with my interest in dating in a big way.  I got asked out several times in college but each time I said no, because I was really scared.  Scared of myself and my ability to judge good character. It was easier for me to just put an end to dating and focus on work.  There are times when I regret that, because I got asked out by some really nice people and I wish I had taken a chance and not let my fear hold me back.  But the truth is, I wasn’t ready at that time and you know what? That is totally fine.  It took me several years but then I was ready to date again.

    I have hope and faith that love will come to each of us at the right time with the right person (or maybe it is all God or luck or whatever you would like to call that universal energy).  And in that situation, the other person does see who you are and loves and respects and admires you for it. Another secret?  In my 20s, I didn’t know what I was looking for, but they were superficial things that seem inconsequential to me now. In my 30s,  the questions and hopes have all changed in a big way.  For example, I never knew how important it is to me how I resolve conflict with someone.  I have seen that ruin many a good relationship, a lot of couples just don’t know how to ‘fight’ with each other and that is huge in how a relationship/friendship evolves.  Lots of details like that I think change for a lot of people as you grow older and get more dating experience.  But when you are ready, just realize, there a lot of nice and decent people out there too and you are bound to run into them just like you are bound to run into the indecent types as well.  But as you date, you will figure out what you are looking for.  Realize that it is absolutely and completely ok to not  feel pressured to do anything you don’t want to.   We all come from such varied backgrounds and life experiences and you are bound to run into some kindred spirits at some point :).   
     
     

  36. avatar Parzifal5 says:

    In my opinion, the daughter could eliminate some booty calls by simply not giving out her contact information. If she meets a guy who seems interested and asks for her phone number, she could tell him her phone is out of order, but tell him what her favorite bar, coffee shop, gym, or meeting spot is and see if he rises to the challenge. I think that a move like that might weed out quite a few guys that are looking for an easy hook-up, and I’m sure there are many more!