Dear Margo: When You’re Homophobic — Quietly

Sad but true: I disapprove of homosexuality. Should I hide my views? Margo Howard’s advice

When You’re Homophobic — Quietly

Dear Margo: I am a 19-year-old college student. Though not politically correct, I disapprove of homosexuality. Most people don’t know I feel this way. I have no problem with gay people. I have a few close friends and many more acquaintances who are gay, and I support gay adoption, gays in the military, hate crime legislation, etc. But in all honesty I do think it is wrong. I am religious, and I disapprove, but I keep my beliefs quiet because I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable. I know my views are irrational, but pretty much all religious faith is irrational.

Recently, another student and I met, and while we didn’t instantly become best friends, we ended up on a friendly footing. She is taking a French class that she’s not doing great in, so I, being fluent in French, offered help. The assignment was to take on a political issue facing America today; she chose homosexuality. More specifically, she wrote that there’s nothing wrong with homosexuality, and those who believe otherwise are small-minded bigots.

I was naturally a bit uncomfortable, but didn’t say anything. She, however, wanted to engage me in a discussion about how my religion influenced my views on homosexuality. I tried to be brief, but she kept digging. Finally, I told her basically what I told you. She blew up and started ranting about how “people like you” are ruining America and Christianity is just an excuse to be hateful, etc. She also told our mutual friends that I am a bigot who hates gays. I think she was far out of line. Was I in the wrong here? If so, what should I have said? –CN

Dear C: This is interesting because it is somewhat convoluted. You say your views are irrational, that religion is, as well, and you don’t make a habit of being vocal about your views. You have gay friends and acquaintances, so you are not a practicing bigot. The fellow student you were trying to help asked your views and then went nuts when you obliged her — in what you say was an abbreviated form. Because you knew where she was coming from, you could have fudged, but instead you were intellectually honest and, given the situation, courageous.

I think your defense with your friends is to point out that your instinctive friendships have trumped your religious views, and to remind them that you have never chosen to discuss this. I find the young woman immature and confrontational, and I also get the idea that, in time, you will lose the views you have now because you know there is something wrong with them. –Margo, progressively

A Lost Love, Five Years Later

Dear Margo: A co-worker and I had a long-distance three-year relationship — he was in London, and I was in the U.S. It was awesome because he would be here for a week each month. I could focus on my career and family, and yet we had a wonderful time. In 2005, we both decided, for family reasons, he needed to stay in London, and I in Virginia. So I took care of my mom, who had Alzheimer’s, he took care of his family, and we stayed in touch as friends — but intermittently.

He is not a great communicator, but he has now expressed the desire to regroup. I will be honest: I have missed him, but I have no desire to rekindle something that has him in London and me here. I plan to be upfront with him when he arrives, but don’t know if I should insist he stay in a hotel until we sort things out. Or is that silly, as adults who truly loved each other? He truly was special. –Need Your Thoughts Soon!

Dear Need: You are both adults, and I detect a great deal of feeling on both sides. Bag the hotel. If you two cannot arrive at a plan to bridge the distances to your mutual satisfaction, I think the rekindling interlude would still be a definite plus. And I have the idea that his wish to “regroup” suggests he may have a plan. I hope so. –Margo, hopefully

* * *

Dear Margo is written by Margo Howard, Ann Landers’ daughter. All letters must be sent via e-mail to Due to a high volume of e-mail, not all letters will be answered.


Every Thursday and Friday, you can find “Dear Margo” and her latest words of wisdom on wowOwow

Click here to follow Margo on Twitter

105 Responses so far.

  1. avatar Katharine Gray says:

    LW#1:  You were not in the wrong to state that because of your religious beliefs you disapprove of homosexuality when confronted by your friend on the issue. You are not on a crusade, you don’t hate gay people and in fact support their full civil rights so I would not call you a bigot.   I’m not sure that you mean that religion is irrational in the sense that it is stupid or wrong headed, merely that faith overrides  reason and I don’t think that you should abandon your faith simply because it disapproves of homosexuality.  (The Catholic churches would be empty if every Catholic who practices birth control or engages in premarital sex abandoned the faith).  I’m not particularly religious myself, but I respect those who are…while at the same time realizing that some religious tenets can lead  evil people to violence and injustice.   You don’t sound like you are getting ready to lead a gang of skinheads to the nearest gay bar to strike up a rumble or seek adoption by the Phelps family.   I would continue on as you are keeping an open mind and treating people well.  And simply relegate the confrantation with your classmate to the *bad experienceI will forget about* category.  And in the future, if perssed on the issue simply say *I support civil rights for gays* and leave it at that. 

    LW#2:  If this guy is truly special, give him a hearing and see what happens.  He may be the love of your life or a merely a passing ship but given your history, I think it is worth hearing him out. 

  2. avatar jsbach says:

    Margo, I was in agreement with your reply to LW#1 until your last sentence. I don’t think it was necessary for you to tell LW#1 that he would grow out of his views, and I don’t agree with you when you state that he realizes there is something wrong with his views. I think you misinterpreted his intended meaning when he states that religious belief is irrational. I don’t think he’s trying to send across the message that he realizes there’s something “wrong” with his views, but that religion is not something that belong in the realm of rationalization, logic, and empirical evidence, but something that requires one to believe and have faith in. He has chosen to believe in his religion, and I believe his faith to be strong. I also believe he keeps his religion to himself so as not to offend others, and in the end I wish more people would follow his example of keeping thy religion to thyself. Nowhere do I see someone who is wavering on his views.

  3. avatar RoseGildedCat says:

    ;0) Nowhere did I see it mentioned LW1 was a “he”, either. The ‘best friends’ bit made me think “she”. I think having to guess annoying, but I think Margo gave a useful, if not perfect, answer; ‘Smooth it over, while reflecting on your views.’  That won’t hurt anyone, and it may help. It’s useful for anyone that finds their upbringing, their culture, or their religion clashes with the latest ideas. Progress.  I don’t know what that means. People use it like Humanity has always moved in a straight line from knuckle-dragging, to knowing it’s rude to burn witches in the name of God. But we haven’t, and right and wrong are disturbingly relative; mostly to the desires of State, but often of Religion, or even Commerce. I don’t know that any of them ever get it right for Humanity as a species. No one knows, so in that respect we are all on our own. You just have to accept the consequences of your beliefs.

    • avatar jsbach says:


      Again, I don’t think it was appropriate for Margo to comment on LW#1 growing out of his (yes I’m assuming) beliefs. The letter was not from a confused soul who had doubts about his beliefs, but from someone who got caught in a sticky situation when confronted with someone who had a completely opposite viewpoint. Furthermore, Margo didn’t simply state to ‘Smooth it over, while reflecting on your views’, she stated confidence that LW#1 would in time grow out of his views.

      • avatar Shannon R says:

        I don’t think Margo was saying he would grow out of his religion, it’s just that obviously this person feels that homosexual people are equal to everyone else and that in time he will stop feeling like homosexuality is “wrong” for the reasons his faith dictates.  Just like catholics who use birth control.  It’s common sense if you can’t afford a bunch of children then don’t have them!  Scientific advancements are a wonderful thing. Faith’s opinion of homosexuality is based on the idea that people “choose” to be homosexual when this is so clearly not the case.  It’s biological.  It’s a biological variation of that person’s make up no different than if they were born left handed, albino, or any other biological difference. 

  4. avatar Belinda Joy says:

    Letter #1 – Brings up an issue I am struggling with right now in my life. Allowing people to speak their peace and accept it is coming from where they say it is coming from. Not overlaying my experiences on what they are saying. As in the fact my dad was clergy and he never once, interpreted any of God’s word in a negative way toward homosexuality. To the contrary, we were taught to be inclusive in that regard. And trust me, coming from the Black community, that was huge! To admit you are Gay is frowned upon, especially by clergy. But my father always said he wanted to raise his children to be open minded and embracive.

    So reading this the thought came to me, are the writer’s feelings about homosexuality really coming from the fact that their religion may say it is wrong, or is it simply an internal belief that it is wrong? It’s like that old saying “I can’t be racist, some of my best friends are Black!” Well, this writer is living proof you can have close friends that are gay and still be homophobic.  Bigotry and bias doesn’t go away just because you are exposed on a regular basis to those you have a bias against. I personally believe it lessens the more we see others as people like ourselves.

    Being able to see two men that are Gay and in a relationship as capable of being committed to one another just as much as any one else. And conversely, those that just want to “hook up” that should be viewed through the same prism. Straight men and women “hoop up” for quickies and one night stands every day, yet if a Gay person does it, we deem it as part of “their culture” which perpetuates the stereotype of how they aren’t like us. And justifies for some a reason to condemn homosexuality as sinful. I agree with Margo, as time goes by and this letter writer sees homosexuals as real people living real lives, she will see them as her equal.

    Letter #2 – I think in 3 years I can count on 1 hand the times I have disagreed with Margo’s advice or opinions. How she feels about Oprah and a few of her responses to letters. This one I couldn’t disagree more. I think given the fact this couple have been apart for 6 years and only connected platonically once in while, that is reason enough for him to stay in a hotel.

    She doesn’t know for sure that he is open to something more than a long distance fling, and is only guessing. So because she plans to be upfront with him about her feelings in that regard, it COULD blow up in her face if he were to stay with her. All that she was hoping to hear may not be what he says and then what? They would be stuck in an awkward situation where he may have thought they were getting back to a “fling” only arrangement only to realize she wanted more.

    I say have the guy stay in a hotel. Meet up with him and catch up on life, feelings, future plans and yes….what you both want from one another emotionally, sexually and define your relationship. Unless you two are super adult and can discuss your feelings from the beginning of his visit in a way that guarantees no hurt feelings, I wouldn’t risk having him stay with you.

  5. avatar Mr. Wow says:

    CN is not a bigot.  I have a close female friend who is much the same.  She supports civil rights for gays, but her upbringing stands in the way of feeling truly comfortable about it.  She simply “doesn’t understand” the attraction between people of the same sex. 

    I wouldn’t dream of condemning her for what–at this point, and maybe forever–she cannot fully embrace.  And while I don’t avoid talking about  my own life, I don’t hit her over the head every time we meet, talking “gay stuff.”   There is so much more we agree on.  

    CN’s friend sounds more bigoted (and certainly more immature) than CN. 

    Do no harm and keep an open mind, CN. 

    • avatar Koka Miri says:

      While I agree that the LW is not a bigot and that she handled herself appropriately (I find it mature that she recognizes she holds a prejudice yet still advocates civil rights – her friend asked and should have been willing to accept her answer), I find it a little sad that even you categorize anything you talk about as “gay stuff” and not “relationship stuff”. It’s difficult when gay people are trapped into being apologetic for themselves so subversively. Maybe if you talked about your life normally, your friend would come to hear that it’s not much different. If you’re worried if you talk openly you’ll lose her, she’s not much of a friend no matter what her beliefs. On the other hand, I don’t know anything about your life. But if it is something that she’d find negative (other than just about relationships) then please don’t categorize it as something purely gay, because you’re harming the rest of us.

      I know tone doesn’t carry over well, so I want to say I’m really not trying to be abrasive, only that you deserve a friend (of whom I’m sure you have plenty others) who you can actually be yourself with. If you hide something, she’ll feel she’s correct it’s something to hide.

      • avatar A R says:

        I want to point something out, Koka Miri: many gay people have ideas, attitudes, and norms that they feel belong to only their gay community. I’ve often been surprised to hear my gay buddies act like something “belonged” only to them due to their “gayness”, and that I couldn’t possibly understand. Many of my friends have a very “we versus the rest of you” attitude. I’m not sure why.

      • avatar Mr. Wow says:

        Dear Koka…

        What mean is…I don’t burden my friend with a lot of sexual talk, the kind of casual chat that friends often exchange.   She knows about B. asks about him, and has even offered relationship advice. (which was major for her!)

        I simply don’t make a big deal about “being gay” when I am with her.  Nor does she carry on about “being straight.”  There are six billion other subjects in this world to discuss.

        She is a good person.  I don’t need everybody I know to “understand” me.  I don’t need straight validation.  I know who I am.

    • avatar Belinda Joy says:

      Mr. Wow, with the exception of the part about your friend’s upbringing placing a negative slant on Gays and Lesbians, I am your friend. 🙂 Put me in her shoes.

      How many times have you read my posts in which I said I don’t understand homosexuality. How can a woman not desire a man? How can a man not crave a woman? How can a woman want to kiss and fondle another woman?  I used to get attacked on the message boards for saying I didn’t understand homosexuality. And nothing has changed in that regard. And no one is more of an advocate for equal rights (okay I guess that is stretching it a bit, I’m sure there are others)  for Gays and Lesbians than me. 

      I agree with Koka Miri on this one, based on her response to you. You should never have to water down your personality so that it is more palitable for someone else….never. That’s like saying if you and I were friends and I knew you didn’t like me to talk about “feminine issues” (hormones, women’s rights, female politicians, women only conferences or movies or books) yet at the same time I knew you supported women’s rights and equality, that would be okay. You can accept that I am a woman, you just don’t want to hear about it. 😀

      What type of friendship is that? You’ll accept me but only up to a certain point? No, indeed CN may not be a bigot. She may be a lovely person with a warm heart. She sure sounds like it. But to her credit she is confessing a form of bigotry. “I love you Mr. Wow, I just don’t love the fact you love men”  That would be a horrible thing to say or think because as you and I know, homosexuality is about a lot more than who you have sex with.

      • avatar emma manderson says:

        In response to your questions- “How can a woman not desire a man? How can a man not crave a woman? How can a woman want to kiss and fondle another woman?” I would say it is all a matter of pheromones. It had always seemed to me that I was bisexual. It made sense to me, logically- why WOULDN’T a person find everyone attractive? But when I eventually tried to get into a relationship with a woman I found that although it was theoretically appealing, the sex didn’t work for me. Women just don’t smell right, haven’t got the right pheromones. This made me understand homosexuality properly in a way I never had. If the chemicals don’t mesh, there’s nothing you can do. 

    • avatar ebonyblu says:

      Well, I agree 100% with this post.  Why, because I have really close gay friends but I do not agree with their lifestyle.  And I have non gay friends whose lifestyles I don’t agree with and keep it to myself.  Why?  Because a friend walks with a friend, accepts a friend for who they are, and enjoys them as they are with the good and the bad.  I am entitled to my opinions, views, and etc.  There are many things that I do not share with others because I don’t want to offend, family included.  I don’t see how any of this is considered a “prejudice” or “phobia” because being gay does not make you a race or nationality or a gender.  Add to that, I don’t treat someone “different” or think of them “differently” because they are gay.  I treat them the same as others and respond accordingly.  And last, there are topics that my gay friends commonly talk about and/or do that I don’t.  Just as there are topics that my male friends commonly talk about that I don’t because I’m a girl.  So there is “gay stuff” and there is “guy stuff” and “girl stuff”.  I just think people are reading too deeply into things and feel that when someone says something that is not appealing to the gay community, there is h*ll to pay.  But I’d like to see the same for other communities.  Double standards . . .

      • avatar R Scott says:

        There is no gay “life style” it’s a part of a person’s being. Your drapes are your lifestyle. Pet peeve and off of my soap box now.

      • avatar Lym BO says:

        NIcely said, Ebonyblu. You and are on the exact same page. 🙂

      • avatar Lym BO says:

        NIcely said, Ebonyblu. You and I are on the exact same page. 🙂

  6. avatar Sweet Dream says:

    To quote LW#1 : ” I know my views are irrational, but pretty much all religious faith is irrational”. There’s still hope. For the time being just continue to be yourself. I know you’re not a hateful person and try not to be bitter about this incident. It will blow over because people will see your behaviour and decide for themselves what they think of you and I’m sure they know that you’re a good person.

  7. avatar Messy ONE says:

    LW #1 – You really are a small-minded bigot, and you don’t have the right to expect that just because you don’t air your view with everyone that some of your friends won’t be offended with you when they find out who you really are.

    You claim that you have openly gay friends, but you don’t approve of them being gay, which is a major part of the very essence of who they are. How can you truly accept someone’s friendship when, in the back of your mind, you are constantly judging them for something that’s not in their control? If one of those friends came to you with relationship problems what would you do? What would you say?

    Margo is absolutely right. You are 19, which is still part of the teenaged stupids (many people have this condition well into their 20s). One day you might grow up and understand that you don’t get to have it both ways.

    You either love your friends and accept them or you don’t. You can’t be a true friend unless you understand that being a true friend means that you have to accept everything about them.

    • avatar MKE says:

      Actually, you are the one who sounds extremely small minded Messy One.

      Of course you can have friends and not approve of everything they do. You can still love and accept your friends, even if you don’t always approve of their choices. For a different example, my friend is having an affair, which I don’t approve of, but I dont love her any less. (and no, calm down, I’m not comparing being gay to having an affair, only that my friends don’t always do everything that I would).

      You can’t control how you feel at your core, but you can control how you treat people.
      As for the whole: “How can you truly accept someone’s friendship when, in the back of your mind, you are constantly judging them for something that’s not in their control? If one of those friends came to you with relationship problems what would you do? What would you say?” thing…who says he/she is constantly juding them? I doubt every second she is with her gay friends she is thinking “gross, you’re gay”….and if I had to guess, I’m sure the letter writers response to them asking for relationship advice would be just as mature, and probably the same advice he/she would give a strait friend.

      And, I’m sorry, thinking homosexuality is wrong, while still accepting and loving people who are, makes you stupid? I feel the same as the letter writer on the subject, but I am not stupid, I don’t judge anyone for thier choices in life (even if they don’t exactly match what I believe), and age has not changed my views (I find offense in you and Margo sugguesting one should grow out of religious beliefs. How rude.).

      No, being a true friend does not mean you have to accept every single thing about a person. It only means you love them any way, despite flaws or differences. (ugg, and no, I never said being gay is a flaw, only that I don’t agree with it)

      I am so tired of “open minded people” putting religious people down. I don’t see how you can consider yourself so progressive and accepting when all you are doing is juding a different group of people. Those types of people are guilty of exactly what they accuse others of. Maybe its time they grow out of THEIR stupids.

      • avatar Messy ONE says:

        Sorry, gotta disagree. The LW is (now, and I know that can change) constantly judging these people in the back of her mind. She SAYS she accepts her gay friends for who they are, but if she believes that homosexuality is wrong, then she is incapable of being a good friend to them.

        She admits that she has to constantly and consciously work to keep her mouth shut about her disapproval. Do you sincerely believe that no one is noticing that? Do you really think that her friends trust her enough to tell her about things that they know she’ll disapprove of? People aren’t entirely stupid, you know.

        She has to censor herself all the time, and her friends are censoring themselves around her because they know what she thinks. She doesn’t have to say it out loud. That’s not friendship. It can’t be, because neither party can really trust the other.

        • avatar A R says:

          By your logic, one cannot be friends unless they can be totally forthright about *all* aspects of their beliefs. I don’t quite agree with that. I don’t tell *all* my business or beliefs to anyone—whether we agree on a topic or not. It’s not censoring oneself to choose to release information on an as-needed or need-to-know basis. It’s also not imperative that friends share the exact same beliefs. If that were the case, none of us would have pals.

          • avatar Carrie A says:

            We’re not talking about people with different beliefs though. Most people have different opinions on things and still remain friends. We’re talking about someone who disapproves of who their friends are inside. A better analogy would be someone who has a friend with blue eyes even though they disapprove of blue eyes. How can you really be friends with someone when you don’t like a big part of WHO they are?

        • avatar MKE says:

          My apologies. I didn’t realize you were a mind reader and/or psycic to the point where you could tell me what she is thinking and doing.

          But considering the reaction of the girl learning french from her…obviously people DON’T notice…

      • avatar Messy ONE says:

        As for religion, I’m glad that the superstitions of Bronze-Age desert nomads bring you comfort. However, that’s not under discussion here. ALL religions teach close-minded groupthink. Your post is proof of that.

        • avatar MKE says:

          Oh, I do love superstitious bronze-age desert nomads. I find them cute and cuddly <3

          haha, and you call me close minded. 🙂

      • avatar jamie spence says:

        Very well-said, MKE. I feel much the same way.

        It’s always ironic to me to see intolerant behavior from those who preach tolerance. They seem to be all for everything…except an opinion that differs from theirs.

        And I have to applaud Mr. Wow for his respect for his friend. I have a friendship that is very similar.

      • avatar Carrie A says:

        So, MKE, everyone should respect your belief that homosexuality is wrong and the LW is right but it’s fine for you to jump all over someone who believes the LW is wrong? And you really wonder why people put religious people down?

        • avatar MKE says:

          Not at all. as I said, I respect everyone’s right to believe what they wish. I have never tried to force religion on anyone.

          I didn’t “jump down Messy’s throat” because they believe differently than I do, I did it because of the inflamatory, unnecessary, and rude comments they made. I don’t like bullies.

          To each their own, I say.

        • avatar Messy ONE says:

          Apparently anyone who doesn’t support MKE’s bigotry is a bigot. It’s the kind of circular logic that xtians are fond of. They get to be outraged without actually coming up with an intelligent answer.

          It’s kind of fun to set them off and see how long they rant.

      • avatar emma manderson says:

        I find it a bit odd that people say they “don’t agree with” homosexuality. It’s not your right to agree or disagree with- it’s just a fact of life. It’s like when I met a relative of my boyfriend and she said “He’s obviously a chubby chaser, he’s always gone for bigger girls. Well I just wanted to let you guys know that’s fine by me”. I was pretty taken aback by this. We hadn’t been asking her permission and it’s pretty presumptuous of her to think her opinion was in any way relevant.

    • avatar A R says:

      Hold on now, the way someone believes is the way they believe. I happen to believe it is wrong to eat animals or use their skins. However, 99.9 percent of my friends and family are NOT of my opinion. Does that make me a bigot who is only in hiding as I don’t approve of their lifestyles? MKE is right, you can’t choose how you feel and your beliefs evolve over your lifetime. What counts is how the person treats others. You can disagree with someone while still loving them or respecting them.

      • avatar stateoflove_N_Trust says:

        Actually, you can change how you feel. It requires alot of hard work to make it happen.  Many people don’t want to put in the effort because we convince ourselves that there is nothing wrong with the way we feel or that we cannot change how we feel.

        I find the most interesting thing about this letter is that the person acknowledges that her beliefs are irrational but chooses to believe anyway.  I call that willful ignorance, but there is hope.  Reason can take you alot of places.  It cannot always get where you hope to go, but it can get you a long way to an answer.  It just may not be the answer the person wants.  If it is not the answer the person wants, then that person must have the courage to cast aside the former beliefs.

    • avatar Carmen McNeil says:

      Messy One, you state “You claim that you have openly gay friends, but you don’t approve of them being gay, which is a major part of the very essence of who they are.”

       I don’t look at being homosexual as defining who a person is. Same thing with heterosexuality. The experiences I go through, the way I carry myself everyday, the kindnesses I show, that is where my essence comes from. Not some characteristic you can check off on a survey. You aren’t going to look at me on paper and see, ‘african american, straight, 5’7 with dark hair,’ and know who I am (or a major part of who I am) at my core.

      If a person feels the same way as I do, then it is very easy to understand why anyone can be friends with someone else that has a different lifestyle. Because they just might have things in common that they think matter. Like how to treat people, ambitions, or hobbies.
      I am aware that sometimes people do define themselves by their orientation, or political viewpoint, or whatever characteristic they choose. However, it’s not for you or me to decide what defines someone else. That is for that individual to decide and maybe the LW’s friends consider being homosexual not a defining characteristic. Maybe they think being a good person is and that’s what keeps them friends.

      • avatar Messy ONE says:

        You pretend that being gay is a “lifestyle”. It’s not. It’s as much a part of a person as me being straight is a part of me. It’s like my red hair, it just IS. It cannot be changed. Ever. The problem is that it’s always been socially acceptable to be straight, but homosexuals are still being murdered in some parts of the country just because they’re gay.

        I’ll tell you what. Do a little mental exercise. Go to all of the posts people have written slamming me and substitute “black” or “jewish” or whatever group you want instead of “gay”. Are you still comfortable with that? Do you feel the same self-righteous fury with me when you make that substitution?

        And before you whine that “that’s different”, no. It’s not different. It’s exactly the same. You might not want to face that, but that’s YOUR problem, not mine.

  8. avatar Cindy Marek says:

    L #1: Everyone’s entitled to their beliefs, opinions, values, etc. But no one (on ANY side of an issue) has the right to try and *force* others to agree with them. Regardless. No exceptions. But lots of people don’t get that; “AGREE WITH ME OR ELSE!!!”

  9. avatar Jrz Wrld says:

    I don’t “get” LW1’s belief system, but then at 19 my own was pretty much all over the place. I don’t think LW1 is a bigot, just in the process of reframing their world. I don’t think you can call a 19-year-old a bigot, frankly, unless they’re willfully spouting all sorts of hurtful nonsense. At that point, you’re still establishing your worldview, especially if you’ve come to conclude things that are contrary to your upbringing. It’s a difficult and crucial period, and flinging accusations like “bigot” around is just going to wound people unnecessarily.

    • avatar stateoflove_N_Trust says:

      I agree with this.  At 19, I thought that homosexuality was wrong too.  However, through exposure to philosophy, the real world and refining my ability to critically think, I changed my tune.  It happened primarily around that 20-23 age.  I am not saying everyone needs to reach the same conclusion that I did, but that period involved alot of flux regarding beliefs and identity.

  10. avatar Lila says:

    LW1: Some people just WANT to be offended. The young woman is one of them. And she is wrong, wrong, wrong to slander you to your friends. I hope they know you better than that.

    And – you are entitled to your beliefs. Indeed, we cannot HELP what we believe – it just IS. Those who would force everyone to celebrate homosexuality are just as wrong as those who would force everyone to condemn it.

    What we can control, is our ACTIONS, and you sound like you have behaved in a true Christian way, separating your beliefs from how you treat real, flesh-and-blood people – a real rarity, in my experience.

    • avatar jamie spence says:

      Beautiful, Lila.

      True Christians are becoming less rare every day. Things are changing.

    • avatar stateoflove_N_Trust says:

      You can control what you believe.  One of the most dangerous beliefs out there is that a person cannot control what they believe. 

      • avatar Rita@ Goldivas says:

        Thank you, thank you, State….

      • avatar Lila says:

        State, I really can’t.

        My beliefs do change, but always through a change in the information that I have. I can educate myself; I can gain experience; someone else can convince me; or maybe I come to see certain consistencies or inconsistencies that change how I see things.

        But… I am not able to just decide, “I believe this” and make it so. I guess my brain just isn’t set up that way.

        • avatar stateoflove_N_Trust says:

          You just proved my point, Lila.  You can change what you believe.  You do so through a rational process in which you assimilate new facts, facts you did not previously understand or know, new arguments, etc.  Your beliefs are updated with the new information.  That is how you change what you believe.  There are people who will see mountains of evidence from science, but refuse to change their beliefs due to some assertions that are not only unprovable, but lack evidence so that they can even be considered reasonable theories.

          I do not think that anyone just says, “I believe this” and thus they believe.

          • avatar Lila says:

            State, yes, yes! Exactly. We do agree.

            I was primed to misunderstand your previous post because – you would be surprised (or not?) how many people have told me that I can choose to believe in [insert religion here]. And they do make it sound like it’s just as simple as making up your mind that “this is so.” I have always needed evidence, observation, or some kind of sense-making model to really believe something.

  11. avatar Chris Glass` says:

    Letter 1 Some readers forget that many families are raised in a church atmosphere – anytime the door is open they are warming the pew. The only views they hear especially in Pentecostal or strict Christian sects are that of the preacher who may or may not be open minded. Until this person has a full life and experiences of her own she may not be able to work past hew views.

    Give her credit she has admitted that she supports rights for gays but is conflicted probably because of the way she was raised. I am guessing that as she matures she will grow mentally and emotionally to realize that people are people no matter how they choose to express themselves. One’s sexuality does not determine what kind of a person they are. For proof of that all we have to do is look at some of the disgraced evangelists and religious leaders.

    • avatar A R says:

      Well said, Chris! I had a hard time climbing out of the deep cavern of homophobia that my Southern Baptist upbringing instilled in me. It took years, but I made it to a place where I have my own thoughts and my own new beliefs.

  12. avatar Katie themick says:

    Sad, little LW1. Even if you think homosexuality is a sin because of some churchy crap you’ve been told, have you ever really read any of the scripture that supposedly says it? I don’t see Jesus anywhere saying one darn word about being gay. Jesus tells you not to judge and to love everyone as he loved you. Remember that, because irrational belief or not, Judgey McJudgerson, that’s waaaay more important to your faith than your little black and white world of childhood beliefs that you will hopefully grow out of. The world is not separated into black and white and absolute right and absolute wrong. The world is a thousand shades of gray. Confront your beliefs head on. What do you really believe and what’s just in your head space because you were told it was true all your life? People who cling to fundamentalist beliefs can’t handle nuance. You have shown that you are open to it. Embrace it. See the world as it is, not as you paint it so you don’t have to think about it.

    • avatar MKE says:

      I have read the scriptures about homosexuality. You should check out the new testiment, Romans 1:26,27 where it distinctly says that it is wrong. So….along with Jesus saying you should treat people well, he did actually say it was wrong. You probably should have researched that before replying. Just a thought.

      And Katie, you are the one who sounds like, what was it? “Judgey McJudgerson”? Though the letter writer said they were religious, you have no idea what thier upbringing was, so you shouldn’t make assumptions…you know what they say about people who assume…

      Given the laid back and accepting view he/she seems to have, I kind of already think they get that life is complicated and not black and white. To me, in this instance, they sound like they will do just fine in life if they stick to thier guns and go with their instincts, whatever they may be. They sound mature, accepting, and aware of the judgmental attitude of people like you, which is why she wanted to keep her thoughts to herself. I don’t blame her.

      And thinking isn’t a bad thing. Most smart people do it.

      • avatar stateoflove_N_Trust says:

        My understanding of that passage is that it is not attributed to Jesus.  Paul wrote that passage.  He condemns homosexuality as wrong. He cautions us not to delight in other’s sins shortly thereafter.

        Paul also considered women to be inferior and was okay with slavery.

      • avatar Kathy says:

        Romans was written by the Apostle Paul, not Jesus.  Jesus actually said nothing about homosexuality, specifically.  However, He is considered by Christians to be the “word made flesh”.  That is, He is God in human form; He is the living, breathing Bible.  That’s how the references to homosexuality in the Old Testament are ascribed to Jesus.  But if you want Jesus “quoted”, you have to stick to the gospels.  And you won’t find anything about homosexuality, there.  Only Jesus’ references about the nature of marriage, and he references “man” and “woman.” 

  13. avatar Kathy says:

    Wowowow … LW1 is all over the place.  She (I am assuming) firmly believes her religion dictates her opinions, yet believes her religion and her opinions are irrational. Whaaa?   She needs to grow up a little more, get comfortable and confident in her own belief system (she doesn’t seem to really have one yet), and not attempt to form lasting friendships with people who are not as respectful of her as she is of them.  And by the way, the conservative factions of all orthodox religions are intolerant of homosexuality. It’s not a Christian thing.  Orthodox Jews and traditional Muslims feel the same way.  They just don’t get bashed for it.

  14. avatar Elizabeth L says:

    As the Mom of a lesbian I am so tired of hearing ” I have gay friends, but……” this is the same mantra used by racist and anti- semites over the years. The more things change the more they remain the same. As for LW1 yes you are homophobic.

    • avatar MKE says:

      While I too have heard racists, etc, begin a disgusting spew of nonsense after uttering that phrase…in all honesty this letter writer didn’t follow it up with any of that. All they said was they don’t agree with the life style. I find it admirable to disagree with someones way of life, but still treat them with the love, respect, friendship, and kindness they deserve.

      • avatar A R says:

        No, homophobic indicates a fear of homosexuality. The letter writer apparently does NOT fear, disrespect, or avoid gays. She’s just 19. Give her time to develop her own beliefs. Up until now, she’s probably been at the mercy (a captive audience if you will) of her parents, church, and family.

      • avatar John Lee says:

        Well said MKE.  That’s the feeling I got as well from LW#1.  S/he seems very mature in accepting others who are different.  She is not a bigot, if being a bigot means one who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance.  But I do realize the meaning of bigot might be changing to someone who has an irrational prejudice, which LW#1 would be.  A non-practicing bigot, to use Margo’s words.

        I think fat people and smokers lack discipline and are a drain on our healthcare system (I used to be fat).  I don’t like either of them, but I certainly have friends who are either, or both and I treat them with respect, even if I disapprove of their lifestyles.

        • avatar elizabeth101878 says:

          Lord knows I love my “friends”, who are willing to be friends even though they view me as lazy, a drain on their tax dollars, and just plain unlikable. Man, with friends like these, who needs enemies?

          Seeing as you claim to be a member of the FFP club, I wonder if your feelings towards that group of people has more to do with your own self-loathing than them, or your own fears of being heavy again.

      • avatar R Scott says:

        MKE – She doesn’t agree with their lifestyle. Hmm… pray tell, what is my lifestyle? Describe it to me please. Thanks.

        • avatar MKE says:

          How should I know what your lifestyle is? I don’t know you, dude or dudette. And no, I’m not claiming to know the letter writers lifestyle, their gay friend’s lifestyle, your lifestyle or anyone elses. Geez people can be nit picky. I’m going to go out on a limb and say you are gay maybe? And guess what, I dont care! I respect you as a person and beleive and would fight to the death for your right to be that way! surprise! Perhaps its the word “lifestyle” that offends you? I meant no offense by it, it was the best way I could articulate the thought.

          If you read what I wrote, it is a positive thing. ACCEPT PEOPLE FOR WHO THEY ARE, EVEN IF THAT ISN’T WHO YOU ARE OR WHAT YOU LIKE, ETC. just be nice to people regardless of whether you are gay, strait, tall, short, fat, skinny, republican, democrat, religious, athiest, vegetarian, meat-eater, movie lover, book reader, football fan, sports hater, tree hugger, lumber jack….WHO CARES!?

          it baffles me that one little whiff of religiously based opinion, even when it is totally on the “lets all just get along and accept each other’s differences, regardless of how we personally feel about the subject” side, totally negates the good things said.

          there is no need to be snide. what i said was treat people with respect and love. i would say the same to you.

          • avatar R Scott says:

            Thanks MKE. That’s the point. It’s not a lifestyle. It is merely someone’s sexuality. Lifestyle indicates choices and external influences. Gay is not a lifestyle. I appreciate your response. By the way, I wasn’t snide. I just asked a question.

          • avatar Messy ONE says:

            MKE translation: I don’t know what it is, but I don’t like it anyway.

  15. avatar Katy Dias says:

    Everyone keeps making comparissons that are not even close to being on the same level. Eating meet is a choice, having an affair is a choice, smoking is a choice, being gay is not a choice.

    Here is a better example for all you simple minded folk out there.

    If I found out someone I was friends with felt that women are not equal to men-oh they believe women should have a right to vote, should be earning the same pay, should get to make the same choices, but at their core did not believe we were truly equal, I could not be friends with that person. That is a better analogy. I am female, I was born female, my sex was not a choice. If someone felt my sex was inferior I would not want associate with that person.

    The rest of your anaolgies are talking about CHOICES that you may not agree with, not something thats at someones core.

    • avatar MKE says:

      That is your opinion. To me, being gay is a choice. Not a bad or good one, just a choice. If they ever find a strand in your DNA that marks someone as gay or strait, then maybe I will consider otherwise.

      Eye color, hair color, etc. yes. There is scientific fact that I can lay my hands on to prove that. It just isn’t the same for homosexuality.

      • avatar R Scott says:

        MKE – At what point in your life did you choose being straight? I’m curiuos. I am gay and I can tell you as a fact that it was not a choice. I have never been anyting but and could no more choose to be straight than I could chose to be taller. Sorry but please understand it’s not a choice. I can appreciate that you seem to supportive of how people live their lives but one’s innate sexuality is not a choice.

        • avatar MKE says:

          R Scott,

          I can understand your view to a point, but perhaps you are right in that I will never completely get it. I could choose to be gay, by going out and sleeping with other women….however I understand you are attracted to what you are attracted to. I do not fault you or anyone else for that, and frankly can’t explain it. I live my life by agreeing to disagree. I don’t know what its like to be in your head, or anyone elses.

          But, just as you are who you are, I am who I am. I like men, but it does not define me. I can’t understand how being gay is anything other than defining who you are sexually attracted to. I don’t see how it effects how you deal with the world, other than the unfortunate predjudices I’m sure you deal with (which I would never wish that on anyone). being strait is nowhere near the largest or even a significant part of who I am, its just who I do (excuse the crude pun). I’m sure you are an awesome guy, and I am sure that there are people who fully love and accept you. I certainly hope so. I just wish you could see how actually insignificant that is. I bet you would be just as awesome and loved if you were strait (not that I think you should be! don’t misunderstand!) I just wish people could see and get past it, and not be so indignant about it.

          The way we, as a society, get past homosexuality/race/religious preconcieved notions and predjudices is to decide that they ARENT so important, just pieces of the puzzle that make up the whole, awesome picture.

          • avatar R Scott says:

            Please don’t think I get up every morning and embrace my gayness. I don’t. I get up and embrace my coffee. Something to think about though is that by being gay (or any other minority) one is always on the outside looking in and that does give one a different perspective. And yes, one’s sexuality is only a piece of the puzzle that makes us who we are but it is still a piece. Most gay people don’t care that they are gay and wish others would do the same. You actually sound like a level headed person and I appreciate being able to “chat” this out.  🙂

          • avatar MKE says:

            Hahaha 🙂 (totally not laughing at you, but the “embrace my gayness” thing was funny. I’m hoping you know that and it was intentional. If not, I’m sure someone will call me out as a bigot for finding it entertaining…;))

            anywho, I can concede that you have a different view point, and I will do my best to try to see the world through different eyes, if I can. I still feel the same, but you have given me things to consider. Thankfully, you sound level headed as well (I wish there were more of you out there…), and I hope life is/will treat you well.

            ok, I’m done now guys, I swear! 🙂 Good day to all! (yes, everybody) 

          • avatar R Scott says:

            It was meant to be funny. I’m glad you got it and life is treating me very well. I wouldn’t have it any other way.  🙂

          • avatar Mimsy says:

            You could not “choose” to be gay by going out and sleeping with women every day. That would make you a straight woman who chooses to sleep with women. You would get no deep emotional connection from it. Sleeping with the opposite or same sex does not make you gay or straight. Biology makes you gay or straight. Just thought I’d clear that up.

          • avatar Katy Dias says:

            MKE-you still did not answer the original question though-when did you CHOOSE to be straight? You tell me the date you said, “I think I will be straight” and maybe I’ll concede it’s a choice, until you can tell me when you made the choice, I am going to say you are flat out wrong.

            Also, they have infact found evidence that a gay mans brain more closely resembles that of a straight woman, and vice versa for a homosexual womans brain and a straight mans, So while not “DNA evidence” as you put it, it does make it seem less like a “choice.”

      • avatar elizabeth101878 says:

        Please MKE, being gay is more a choice than being straight. I doubt you can ever put your finger on a time you conclusively “chose” to be straight…you just were. In the same manner, people who are gay never chose to be that way…it’s just the way they were.

        • avatar elizabeth101878 says:

          I mean to “no more a choice”.

          • avatar Lym BO says:

            I was hoping what MKE might have meant was that gay people decide/choose to live the gay lifestyle rather than hetero, but her response took another turn. She (like me) can’t understand how a man could be attracted to another man. BUt then I understand that a homosexual likely feels exactly the same way about heteros.. How could a man be attracted to a woman? The big difference is that from birth people are taught that man/woman is the norm & it takes some homosexual people longer to realize/accept they are not the norm. Another sad thing is there are people who seem to actually temporarily choose to be homo/bi after a failed hetero relationship then revert back to hetero. Those are the people who lead heteros to a confused point of view-as well as confusion amongst scientists. As do bisexuals. Some day the DNA (or whatever-hormone levels, etc) that dictate sexuality will be found and we will all look back on this and laugh just like we now say “ha ha remember when people thought cancer was contagious OR women didn’t know how they got pregnant OR we believed in Santa”.
            I respectfully disagree with those who have said one cannot be a friend if one is not in agreement with certain aspects of another’s life. I have yet to meet anyone on this planet who is in total agreement with me-even my spouse. 🙂 Life sure would be boring if that was so. I certainly can be your supportive friend regardless because it is not my place to judge. It is my place to help you through your dilemma.

  16. Reading the first letter made me remember a quote attributed to Plato:

    “Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

    That sums up my attitude on the subject. 

    author of Seeking Sara Summers (.com)

  17. avatar R Scott says:

    Here’s the thing with me and LW1 and some of the posters here. I get real tired of I don’t dislike gay people I just don’t understand their lifestyle or I don’t understand homosexuality or I love them but don’t like the “gay” thing. The thing is, my being gay is part of my DNA like my eye color, hair color, basic temperament. If you don’t like my “gay part” then, I’m sorry folks but you just pretty much discounted a very large part of me. You see, just as your heterosexuality and all the bold and subtle things that brings to your life helps to define you so does my homosexuality. It’s not just who I have sex with. It’s a large part of how I deal with the world. How I see, filter and perceive the environment in which I operate.

    If I never, ever engage in sex again I’m still gay. Do you get that? Being gay is not an ethical or moral choice on my part anymore than breathing oxygen is. It is an important part of what and who I am. If you can’t accept that than stop pretending that you accept me because you don’t. I might add too that it’s your loss not mine when you shut me out. I’m a really cool guy.  


    • avatar Brooke Schubert says:

      Excellent post.  I agree with you completely, and I think we’re missing a lot of information on the nuances of LW#1’s behavior and I think Margo is spot on, INCLUDING her final sentence.  Someone who honestly believes that homosexuality is wrong will NOT be supporting gay rights and gay marriage.

      Either LW#1 is giving off hateful vibes and isn’t coming off as neutral as she thinks she is, or her “gay is wrong” belief is just something she says, not something she believes.

    • avatar Messy ONE says:

      R Scott – You’re right, but that’s not what the bigots want to hear. MKE in particular is spouting his nonsense all over the place here, digging the hole he’s in deeper with every statement. He sounds like both a dolt and a broken record, but he’s got too much invested in being “right” to listen to reason. You’re flogging a dead horse with that one.

      I notice that not one of the people who are rabbiting along about how “gay” equates with “evil” or “wrong” did my mental exercise, namely substituting the race of their choice for “gay” in what they say. They cannot bear to do it, because then they’ll be forced to admit how awful they sound.

      It’s a good thing that people as ugly as these are in the minority. Consider that being ruled by fear as they are must be a very sad, small life.

      • avatar MKE says:

        *is spouting HER nonsense all over the place here. I’m female 😉

        • avatar MKE says:

          Oh, and acutally I’m a super happy person, with a happy life. I hope yours is as well!<3

          • avatar Messy ONE says:

            Most people who choose to be ignorant about life are happy.

            Of course, some of us see an unexamined life as one wasted. I’m having a blast, and it’s all because I left the Church far behind me!

          • avatar MKE says:

            I’m very sorry you seem so hell-bent on being negative, I had hoped we could reach some level of civility. Also, please don’t speak for me, you have no idea who I am or what I’m about.

            my last post at the end says what I feel on everything. I’m glad my life is finally where its at now, its been a long road.

            And I’ll pray for you to find your way home again. But I am glad that you are enjoying life, and I hope that it continues that way.

            ignorance is bliss. though still ignorance. Just because my opinion is different, doesn’t mean I can’t see your side. But I still have free will, and my own ideas, which I plan to live by. However, its good to engage your opposites, so thanks for making my friday go by swiftly, at least 🙂

  18. avatar Belinda Joy says:

    Let’s put one portion of this thread of conversation to rest. By definition CN is certainly not a bigot. So for the statements that I made that even remotely implied she was, I stand corrected.



    a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race


  19. avatar David Bolton says:

    You know, I don’t know if I’d worry so much about winning an argument with a gay friend so much as viewing faith as “irrational.” Jesus doesn’t have much (if anything) to say about homosexuality—but He has LOTS to say about hypocrisy and going through the motions when it comes to religion.

    Good luck with that.

  20. avatar Jody says:

    College student = time in life to find one’s way.
    I wouldn’t expect a young person to fully understand where they stand on issues these days. There is a lot more coming at them in their youth than there ever was in mine. The flood of information can be confusing.

    The only thing I would say is that if you choose to believe, feel, or think something… it is your right to do so. It doesn’t mean you have to do anything about it, but you certainly are welcome to it all. If someone presses you for any of it, and they don’t like what you have to say, it is NOT your problem… it is there’s. They have a choice; either to deal with it, or walk. It is but one facet of your thoughts and can change any time if you choose it. Either way, it is your reality in this moment and you have your right to it, regardless of what others believe.

    I wish parents did a better job of teaching our children that there truly is no separation between us. We are all one. If one of us suffers, we all suffer. Whether it is the gay man being beaten for his homosexuality, or the religious person being persecuted for their beliefs in the court of public opinion. None of us are wrong. None of us are right. We just simply…. are.

  21. avatar BeanCounter says:

    RE:  LW#1:   It’s just disgusting what people serve up to me as “their opinion” that I somehow have to “respect”.  If you serve me up a “sh!t sandwich” dressed up in the best french bread and serve it to me in a very nice deferential manner, it’s still a sh!t sandwich, and I’m going to be disgusted and tell you exactly how I feel about your ridiculous beliefs.   

    • avatar David Bolton says:

      Bean: you don’t have to respect their opinion, you just have to respect their right to have one. Every time I go to Times Square—people try to hand me crap all day long. I don’t have to accept it—in fact, I’ve realized I don’t even have to acknowledge the person who is trying to hand it to me. But I’m not going to stop them from trying to hand out their message or tell them they’re wasting their time—it’s their business and time to waste, and I’ve got things to see and do in Times Square.

  22. avatar James says:

    I’ll cut LW#1 a little slack for the combination of her youth and probable strong religious upbringing — which may not necessarily be christian. But when she says, “I have a few close friends and many more acquaintances who are gay, and I support gay adoption, gays in the military, hate crime legislation, etc”, notice what she’s leaving out? The thing that, according to the latest polls, an overwhelming majority of Americans her age and even a majority of all Americans support? The issue that the President — who, like the LW, considers himself religious — says he’s “evolving” on?

    Other than marriage equality, here’s what her “etc” likely doesn’t include: civil unions, benefits for partners of gay servicemembers, joint adoption by same-sex couples — anything that involves legal recognition of a committed romantic relationship between two men or two women.

    It’s the sort of recognition that, in my case, would allow my foreign-national partner the same path to citizenship an opposite-sex partner would have. There’s a workaround for that, of course: we could find a pair of lesbians in the same boat and strike a deal. Seems a strange way to “preserve the sanctity of marriage”, though, and technically illegal.

    If I got anything wrong here, CN, please, um, set me straight.

    • avatar Lym BO says:

      The only issue I have with equal rights for insurance/retirement benefits, etc is: who is to stop the umpteen women out there that decide that if they “marry” their best friend they can now get their benefits. I’m just afraid it might run companies who are already struggling dry. There are a lot of 50+ women out there that are simply done with men & what a great scam of which to take advantage.

      • avatar emma manderson says:

        What’s to stop them marrying their male friend just for the benefits? Sorry, that’s no argument at all.

        • avatar David Bolton says:

          I get so tired of hearing the “but what if…?” logic to refuse what should be basic rights for health, welfare and happiness from gay people, as though we all sit on our dark thrones all day and think up Machiavellian ways to screw up the system and cause chaos. If we had wanted to do that, we would have all come out at the same time and shut down the armed forces.

  23. avatar MKE says:

    I’m sure I’ll get guff for this, and since this is an old Margo now, will not be read probably, but I don’t much care.
    First, Thank you Messy One! I work in an office for 8 hours a day and you are freakin’ hilarious. I love you, seriously, you entertain me to no end.You may think I am insincere or making fun of you, but I honestly hope you are happy and well, cuse mixed nuts just aren’t the same without the variety, ya’ know? 🙂
    In answer to people asking how I chose to be strait…actually I believe I did. Not that its anyone’s business, but since this is anonymous, I used to be bisexual. I have dated girls and guys (I am a girl), so I do actually know what I’m talking about. I CHOSE to be strait (this is my own story and my own experience, I do not bound others to the confines of my experience, so chill) and decided that that was right for me. After a while, I actually began to wonder what I ever found sexually attractive about women, even though I did at one time, after I found the awesome guy I’m with now. Thats just me, and so I believe it to be possible. I’ve lived it.
    We ALL sin in our own way, and to me, being gay is no worse a sin than pre-marital sex, which I engage in, so I’m definately NOT saying I’m better than anyone. On the contrary, I believe we really are all equal in life, we are all sinners and saints, at times.
    Never once have I said being gay is “evil”, so I hope noone believes Messy One’s view of me, though understandable I suppose since he/she doesn’t actually know me. I really CAN’T help what I believe, because I feel God’s presence in my life, I feel him in my soul and it gives me comfort. Do I still sin? Heck yes! I’m human ya’ll! but it doesn’t change the fact that I know very well that I’m doing it, and that I can recognize right from wrong. I just choose to do wrong sometimes because its fun, or it feels good 😉 I’ll answer to that when my time comes, and I’ll be ready to own up to it.
    For anyone I have offended by “digging my holes”, I really am sorry. I appreciate and accept that not everyone thinks the way that I do, and it is never my intention to alienate anyone or make them feel bad. If I had my way, we’d all be one freakin happy family (a pipe dream, I am well aware). Also, if I have made any comments that have come across as bigoted, this is also not my intention. Though my opinions won’t change, I harbor no animosity with them…you can’t just pick and chose the things you like from the bible to follow, you know! 🙂 Its supposed to be hard, most things that are right, are, it’s that whole “the path to heaven is narrow” thing.
    Finally, just because religiously I cannot accept homosexuality, doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be all for gay marriage, adoption, naturalization, all of it! separation of church and state guys, totally awesome…I can’t remember the comedian that said it, but “if gays and lesbians want to be as miserable as the rest of us strait married people, I say let them!” 🙂 and if a gay couple can give a happy home to a child, then God bless their giving hearts, they deserve it.
    I have said my peace, because I don’t like when people speak for me. Thanks to anyone who will read it.

    • avatar David Bolton says:

      Oh, I read it all right.

      And by the way, it’s “straight.” A “strait” refers to a body of water.

  24. avatar Baromomom says:

    LW2 seems to have gotten lost in the other thread!  This man has been unavailable for 9 years: one week a month for 3 years, and intermittent friends for the last 6.  I wish she had been more specific when she said that he was taking care of his family.  Are we talking elderly parents or a wife and kids?  If he is married, she shouldn’t waste another minute of her time with this man, and if she MUST see him, book her own room.  Unless he tells her that he is willing to make a commitment to be on the same side of the Altantic as she is, and is legally available to do so (unmarried), go back to being “intermittent” friends and look for a man who is available full-time.  However wonderful the past connection, a part-time partner will just continue to frustrate her.  She deserves more!

  25. avatar susan says:

    I agree with Margo, I think LW#1 will grow out of it. I am certainly not the same person now as I was in my 20’s. I have become much more understanding in my old age. I now can’t understand why a person’s sexuality has to be an issue, so what? Who cares? We are all unique and have the right to live our lives the way we were meant to. How we express physical love to another consenting adult is our business only and no one elses.

  26. avatar Baby Snooks says:

    All prejudice is borne of ignorance and there is no worse ignorance than ignorance borne of religious conviction.  There are those who still believe in the Curse of Ham.  And in some mean old man in the sky who deemed some less than others.  They call him god. I call him some mean old man in the sky that some created in order to feel superior to others. Particularly those who they, not god, cursed.  And still curse.  I have no use for this mean old man in the sky or for those who believe in him.  Simply because of millions who have been victimized and vilified and sent off  to burning stakes and concentration camps at the hands of those who believe in him. and who believed they were doing so because that is what he wanted.

    I have yet to meet anyone of religious conviction who didn’t fall prey to the fallacy of believing that the guarantee of heaven lay in the condemning of everyoene else to hell.  My observation has been that they are the ones who are headed for hell. Not the ones they are condemning.

    I have met some who managed to move from the blind faith of religious conviction to the absolute faith in god rather thean the teachings of man and I have found that the best way to avoid going hell is to avoid those who are headed there.  So I avoid those who use religion to condemn others simply because I have found that they would be wiser to look in the mirror and condemn themselves instead. 
    I think people get lost in the discourse about homosexuality by confusing the sinner with the sin so to speak.  The same could be said about heterosexuality. 

    • avatar Lila says:

      Snooks, re: “religious” people or “believers” who condemn others, or burn them at the stake, etc: I think they are not really believers. And I think their behavior is more about fear and power than about faith.

      Would Jesus (according to how he is portrayed in the Gospels) ever burn anyone at the stake? Did he condemn prostitutes or the poor, or even the Roman soldiers occupying his land? The only people he was recorded as having been angry at, or criticizing, were the hypocritical Pharisees and the predatory moneychangers at the temple.

      And yet, “Christians” throughout history and even today misuse their religion as a tool of exclusion, oppression, fearmongering and power. If they really believed in a divine Christ, how could they dare to use their religion that way? Ergo – I think they are just cynics and hypocrites, and not believers at all.

      • avatar David Bolton says:

        Snooks: Exactly. I love these people (love = can’t stand), who so cheerfully “love the sinner” and “hate the sin.” “OH I LOVE YOU BRO, IT’S JUST TOO BAD THAT YOU’RE GAY, ‘CAUSE IN GOD’S EYES (SINCE I PERSONALLY SPEAK FOR HIM) THAT’S A SIN. BUT YOU’RE STILL MY BOO!” This is like taking a kid to an amusement park and constantly telling him “just wait until your father gets home—you’re gonna get it. Now do you want to ride the roller coaster or the Ferris Wheel?”

        • avatar Baby Snooks says:

          Personally I have always wondered why Abraham was wandering around in the desert and I must assume he was cast there and then when he still didn’t get the message god decided to toss a big black rock at him and missed but Abraham built a temple around the rock and god assumed Abraham had gotten the message and decided Abraham deserved a second chance. No doubt carved into a mountain somewhere in the desert now are the words “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice, forget it.” I suspect god is about to toss another big black rock.

          Beware the gods and goddesses and gurus. Particularly those who claim to be the gurus of the gods and goddesses.

  27. avatar NevadaFriend says:

    At my age, 70, I’ve heard all the pros and cons of this subject. My faith tells me that God created us all and I take that to mean little people, conjoined twins, people with harelips, giants, bearded women, people with 7 toes on each foot, people born without arms and legs. Boy, you get started on a list like this and you realize that there’s a lot more imperfections that people are born with than this. In biblical times people wouldn’t have known how to understand these things, and a lot of other things also. They thought the earth was the center of the universe and that the earth was flat, if you recall. Of course, we know so much more now that it boggles the mind. I advise everyone who doesn’t understand homosexuality to take a biology course, 101 should be enough. We have hormones and all sorts of things going on inside us, some we can see and feel and others that we don’t. Every woman, for sure, knows the experiences of hormones but I guess people still don’t understand. Homosexuals don’t just wake up one morning and say, “I’m going to be gay.” My advice is education, education, education. Gays should be able to marry and have good lives just like the rest of us. It’s not a “preference” and above all it isn’t a “sin.”

  28. avatar Jennifer juniper says:

    More apologists I see. And as usual all in the defence of religion. LW1 has a mind-set that perpetuates the inequality that gays experience on a daily basis. I don’t particular care that he’s ‘quiet’ about it. He describes himself as ‘religious’. So it’s not out of order to presume that perhaps he goes to church weekly, that he contributes monetarily to such organisations that continue to fight against gay people having the same rights as everyone else. No – he doesn’t need to be ranted at, but he does need to told he’s wrong. And he is. And if he has any sense he WILL grow out of those beliefs with time. And BTW – I notice support for gay marriage wasn’t included in list for gay rights. You can bet your bottom dollar that there is some line that he draws in terms of his prejudice and gay rights.

  29. avatar Magicmare says:

    I’m at odds with my daughter. 
    My daughter and son-in-law have had pit bull dogs they rescued from the street for 3 years. Recently the dogs have killed (tore into) the family German Shepherd.  Excuse offered?  “The German Shepherd must have had a seizure so they attacked him.”  Then the older cat was suddenly found dead – no prior symptoms.  “Oh.. he probably died of old age.”  Next, the older  but  healthy wolf mix dog hemhorraged and died.  Again the excuse was ‘probably’ “Old age.” Then this week the dogs openly killed their happy young cat.  The excuse offered?  “Oh.. they were UPSET because we emptied the house in the move.”
    Recently their dream of adopting a newborn baby came true and he’s arrived. I am sick at heart because I truly FEAR for the baby.   My daughter and son-in-law are resisting making the painful decision to relocate or put down the dogs. Nobody is sure which dogs or if all are involved.
    I’m terrified for my new infant grandson.  Meanwhile, they seem to seek opinons that will let them KEEP those dogs. I do understand the awful pain of giving up a pet but compared to a child’s LIFE?  Should I continue to fight for my grandson’s welfare?  Even if it means alienating myself from them and a grandson I love very much?   I can’t stomach what fates are being tempted here.   I am angry, frustrated and totally afraid for my grandson’s safety. 

    • avatar Diagoras says:

      Magicmare, of course you should! But before you go nuclear by calling social services or a lawyer to fight for custody of the baby, you could try suggesting to your daughter that the dog be placed with someone with dog training experience, maybe special experience with rehabilitating aggressive dogs. What they probably fear most is that the dog will be put to death, but there are groups who try to rehab dogs or place them in “foster” homes where the people taking care of them have had special instruction in how to train dogs, etc. Suggest to her that perhaps these dogs need a specialized kind of care that only professionals can provide. You are right that the baby should come first, but if you can get your daughter and son-in-law to give up the dogs voluntarily it will be easier on everyone, including you.